Dallas Protest, Shots Fired

[T.Lex]

This I STRONGLY disagree with. LE should qualify their presence, and for BLM protests, that qualification is evident. To use LE as a threat, is NOT the way to go. Nothing good can come from that posturing. Safety of self, the public, and property....that's it, that's our task, not to be a blunt object to pummel fear into our citizens.
I know you're pissed and speaking from emotion, but let's no lose sight of what we do and how we do it, properly.

But this in and of itself represents the problem with scaling individual motivations up to a group, or scaling group motivations down to individuals.

If you're doing crowd control at a large event, do you care whether the next officer down is doing it to project authority or as a service to the city? How would you really know why he/she is doing it? All you care about is whether they'll make the right decisions, right?

We can't regulate people's motivations. We just can't. Its impossible.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Really? You are calling for police using armed intimidation against protesters? Did I take a wrong turn on my way to work and end up in a foreign country? That sounds completely un-American.

He's upset, trust me, he's not cut from that cloth, AT ALL. It's a very sensitive subject for us.

 

[T.Lex]

Really? You are calling for police using armed intimidation against protesters? Did I take a wrong turn on my way to work and end up in a foreign country? That sounds completely un-American.

I'm sorry if this comes across as condescending, but do you study history very much? Easiest example off the top of my head is the Bonus Army.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

 

[Kutnupe14]

He's reportedly an Army vet.

Micah X. Johnson: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

"X?" No I'm wondering if he's NOI.... last name throws it off a bit though. And FYI this doesn't help dissuade the military to radical narrative the govt has pushed forward.

 

[jamil]

I see a lot of binary talk, not just on INGO but wherever. Us vs them is not healthy language to use or a mindset to have. Micah Johnson got caught up in all the us vs them rhetoric from the BLM movement and he started seeing white people as less than human, something he needed to lash out against. As I read the information about the shooter, it seemed pretty obvious that binary thinking was a precursor to his final actions. Life rarely distills to just two things. For him it came down to that. Coupled with training and the will to do it, just wow.

I'm not saying the binary thinkers will do something like this. But if you reduce everything to this or that, us or them, you might mistake someone with dubious motives as "us", and friendly motives as "them". Why discount potential allies because they meet your definition of "them"? Why assume dubious allies just because they meet your definition of "us"?

 

[Double T]

He's upset, trust me, he's not cut from that cloth, AT ALL. It's a very sensitive subject for us.

Which is why I am stating LEO shouldn't aim to intimidate. Ever. All it takes is one stone to perpetuate things.

 

[Expat]

Come on, Kut, you know that they ARE disproportionately killed. 26% of the people shot by police (justified or not) are black, while only 13.5% of the population at large is black. Hispanics make up 17% of the population, but make up 24% of the people shot. Whites, while being 60% of the population, make up 50% of the population shot. In raw numbers, yes more white people are killed by police, but when you take the population into account, blacks are killed in much greater percentage than whites. That doesn't mean all these shootings are not justified, but the numbers are striking enough that we need to look at them as a society.

Striking? In what way? If the numbers you quote are correct, then based upon each groups' involvement in violent crime, the differences would be expected. In fact, the police may actually be killing more whites and fewer others than they should be. Perhaps whites should be rioting. I know when I hear of some white guy being killed by police, unless there is some reason to believe otherwise, my default thinking is, he needed killing.

 

[T.Lex]

"X?" No I'm wondering if he's NOI.... last name throws it off a bit though.

Bey-Johnson at one time, maybe?

 

[Beowulf]

As Kut pointed out in a different thread, blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime. Logically this will lead to a disproportionate level of contact with police and therefore a disproportionate amount of shootings.

To be fair.

Here's the real question and one I don't really know the answer to. Do blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime? Or are they simply charged in disproportionate levels? I know that this is indeed true when it comes to non-violent drug crimes. Little Billy Lillywhite from Carmel (and his pill popping soccer mom) is much more likely to get a slap on the wrist and diversion for drug possession than a black kid down on 10th and Sherman.

Federal: "Fifty percent (95,800) of sentenced inmates in federal prison on September 30, 2014 (the most recent date for which federal offense data are available) were serving time for drug offenses (table 12, appendix table 5). In comparison to the 53% in state prisons, violent offenders represented 7% of the federal prison population (14,000 prisoners). Among female federal prisoners, 4% were convicted of violent crimes in 2014. Public order offenders made up 36% of the BOP population, and 9% of federal prisoners (17,000) were serving time for immigration offenses. Among Hispanics in federal prisons, 26% were sentenced for immigration offenses (16,100 inmates), and 57% were sentenced for drug crimes (36,000 inmates). Fifty-three percent of black federal prisoners were convicted drug offenders in 2014, and 25% served sentences for weapons offenses."

Data from:
http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5387
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p14.pdf

 

[oldpink]

Come on, Kut, you know that they ARE disproportionately killed. 26% of the people shot by police (justified or not) are black, while only 13.5% of the population at large is black. Hispanics make up 17% of the population, but make up 24% of the people shot. Whites, while being 60% of the population, make up 50% of the population shot. In raw numbers, yes more white people are killed by police, but when you take the population into account, blacks are killed in much greater percentage than whites. That doesn't mean all these shootings are not justified, but the numbers are striking enough that we need to look at them as a society.

At the risk of being misconstrued, the rate of offenses, particularly violent offenses, is also disproportionately represented in that particular demographic.

 

[jamil]

"X?" No I'm wondering if he's NOI.... last name throws it off a bit though. And FYI this doesn't help dissuade the military to radical narrative the govt has pushed forward.

Ah. Nation of Islam. I didn't put that together at first but it makes sense.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I mostly agree, but it was the police who initially tweeted out the photo and asked for help in identifying him. I was watching the twitter feed when they did it. And I don't recall them using the word "suspect". Possibly "person of interest".

I think social media first seized on some guy black guy wearing camo, walking around with an AR, and police saw this and wanted to talk to the guy. Then it was widely reported by old media. Even long after the twittersphere had discovered that the guy wasn't involved, networks were still reporting photos of the "suspect".

Like was said earlier, he was just a 2A conscious guy involved in a peaceful protest, exercising his rights, at a time when there's a shooting and talk of someone with a rifle.



It is about a distinctive identity. However, I don't fault people for being biased. They have a right to be self-interested to a point. Could you conceded that "pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon" goes beyond that point? It's not to condemn the whole organization--and it is an organization. But some within the organization, and perhaps their leadership have motives beyond just the original charter.



No. It's a direct quote from their website. They call themselves a national organization with local chapters. You can join BLM. Now I probably couldn't since the organization "is a network predicated on Black self-determination, and BLM Chapters reserve the right to limit participation based on this principle." Which is at least a polite way to say it.

Anyway, all that to build to this point. They're a national organization. if you think they're not a national organization, perhaps you should contact them and tell them to stop saying they are, and organizing nationally.

I don't think the rank and file people that make up BLM are racist. I do suspect the leadership at the top takes advantage of people's biases, and conditions, and is using that as tool to build political capital that they can spend on other goals. That's just a fair assessment of what I think given all the facts I can find. There may be things I've left unsaid in the interests of brevity, but there are no lines you should be reading between. I'm only saying what I've said.



Yeah. That counts. He pretty much brought that on himself though. And so did the guy in Dallas.



I pretty much agree with this. However I would not rule out nefarious means by unscrupulous people placing themselves in positions of influence. But as a whole, while some BLM supporters are vocally happy about last night, clearly the majority isn't. And I'm talking about the rank and file members and supporters, not the leadership.



Quoted so people will hopefully read it again.

I believe that quote you had was from Canada.

Black Lives Matter-Vancouver: 'We all feel an urgent sense of justice. We want it now.' | rabble.ca

That appears word for word, in the above link.

 

[Beowulf]

I'm sorry if this comes across as condescending, but do you study history very much? Easiest example off the top of my head is the Bonus Army.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

I do study history and I'm aware of that incident (and the troops led by MacAurthur), as well as myriad of other incidents where police and military power was used to stop people from exercising their rights (Kent State in 1970 for example), not to mention outright massacres, like Wounded Knee in 1890. I had hoped that maybe we had progressed past that as a country, but all I've seen in the past 15 years is a slide backward toward statism and totalitarianism, with people wrapping themselves in the flag to justify it. It's pretty sickening.

 

[AA&E]

Come on, Kut, you know that they ARE disproportionately killed. 26% of the people shot by police (justified or not) are black, while only 13.5% of the population at large is black. Hispanics make up 17% of the population, but make up 24% of the people shot. Whites, while being 60% of the population, make up 50% of the population shot. In raw numbers, yes more white people are killed by police, but when you take the population into account, blacks are killed in much greater percentage than whites. That doesn't mean all these shootings are not justified, but the numbers are striking enough that we need to look at them as a society.

That same 13.5% of the population is responsible for over 50% of the violent crime in this nation.. bringing them into contact with police more often for these violent incidents to occur. If you are going to use statistics as a basis for comparison, at least be honest in your assessment and conceal there is a reason for the black person/officer interactions that lead to the encounters we are discussing.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Ah. Nation of Islam. I didn't put that together at first but it makes sense.

X stands for Xavier.

 

[AA&E]

Here's the real question and one I don't really know the answer to. Do blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime? Or are they simply charged in disproportionate levels? I know that this is indeed true when it comes to non-violent drug crimes. Little Billy Lillywhite from Carmel (and his pill popping soccer mom) is much more likely to get a slap on the wrist and diversion for drug possession than a black kid down on 10th and Sherman.

Federal: "Fifty percent (95,800) of sentenced inmates in federal prison on September 30, 2014 (the most recent date for which federal offense data are available) were serving time for drug offenses (table 12, appendix table 5). In comparison to the 53% in state prisons, violent offenders represented 7% of the federal prison population (14,000 prisoners). Among female federal prisoners, 4% were convicted of violent crimes in 2014. Public order offenders made up 36% of the BOP population, and 9% of federal prisoners (17,000) were serving time for immigration offenses. Among Hispanics in federal prisons, 26% were sentenced for immigration offenses (16,100 inmates), and 57% were sentenced for drug crimes (36,000 inmates). Fifty-three percent of black federal prisoners were convicted drug offenders in 2014, and 25% served sentences for weapons offenses."

Data from:
http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5387
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p14.pdf

Look at homicide stats in the United States. The numbers do not lie. Black men are approximately 20% the size of the US population of white men and yet commit more homicides every year.

 

[jamil]

I believe that quote you had was from Canada.

Black Lives Matter-Vancouver: 'We all feel an urgent sense of justice. We want it now.' | rabble.ca

That appears word for word, in the above link.

You don't have to google the words I quoted to find where I got the information. I told you where I found the quotes. Black Lives Matter | Freedom & Justice for all Black Lives

It does not surprise me that a BLM local chapter would quote the national organization. Again, if you believe they're not a national organization, you should probably email them and tell them to take their website down and stop organizing local chapters across the continent. I wonder how long it will be until they reach across the pond and become truly international?

 

[T.Lex]

I do study history and I'm aware of that incident (and the troops led by MacAurthur), as well as myriad of other incidents where police and military power was used to stop people from exercising their rights (Kent State in 1970 for example), not to mention outright massacres, like Wounded Knee in 1890. I had hoped that maybe we had progressed past that as a country, but all I've seen in the past 15 years is a slide backward toward statism and totalitarianism, with people wrapping themselves in the flag to justify it. It's pretty sickening.

I guess my point is, and I'll cede the last word to you, that having 10x the number of officers at a BLM event is probably more indicative of progress on these matters considering how much worse they've been handled in the past.

:thumbs:

As to statistics, IMHO they bury the lede when portrayed as they are in this thread. It is less about race and more about poverty. Poor white folk are criminals more often than rich white people. In fact, the "white" component of most of those stats (from what I've been able to glean from reading the studies) are generally poor and uneducated.

So, chicken and egg problem. Poverty because of race cause criminality or just poverty?

 

[Tombs]

You're witnessing the cost of acknowledging race instead of doing away with the concept entirely. It all devolves into identity politics, and eventually that always ends up in war when tensions are this high.

Get the government and media to shut up about race and properly classify BLM as a terrorist organization, and within a decade or 2 things might go back to the levels of sanity they were before all of this nonsense.

 

[phylodog]

Here's the real question and one I don't really know the answer to. Do blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime? Or are they simply charged in disproportionate levels? I know that this is indeed true when it comes to non-violent drug crimes. Little Billy Lillywhite from Carmel (and his pill popping soccer mom) is much more likely to get a slap on the wrist and diversion for drug possession than a black kid down on 10th and Sherman.

I'm not in the habit of making excuses for people. I'll tell you that you will never have the true answer to that question.

I'd say your comparison of Billy in Carmel compared to a black kid downtown is ass backward. Hamilton County actually prosecutes people who are arrested. Here in Marion County, not so much. I wish I had a true count on the number of convicted murderers walking the streets of this city.