Dallas Protest, Shots Fired

[Double T]

We can disagree on that. I'd prefer not to see the entire country bullied by BLM.

I'd prefer to not have a group of LEO threatening a group of people, regardless of the non-LEO groups previous actions. Arrest them, or stand down. Badges are not tools for intimidation.

 

[T.Lex]

Ferguson and Baltimore saw instances where the CROWD, spontaneous crowd, turned to violence. The crowd. This didn't happen in Dallas. The Dallas protest crowd was non-violent. Other parties used the protest as an opportunity to commit this despicable act. In the two former instances I cited, no problem with your idea, in the latter, no.

At least for awhile, I think any reasonable jurisdiction could expect the need for additional security for BLM now. Part of the suckage is that a peaceful group (let's assume) is now stained with the blood of those officers. That's part of the reality. An overwhelming police presence at any further events would not only be justified, but should be expected.

 

[phylodog]

Ferguson and Baltimore saw instances where the CROWD, spontaneous crowd, turned to violence. The crowd. This didn't happen in Dallas. The Dallas protest crowd was non-violent. Other parties used the protest as an opportunity to commit this despicable act. In the two former instances I cited, no problem with your idea, in the latter, no.

And there it is.


Dallas chief just said suspects were "motivated by BLM"

Police Chief: "Suspect wanted to kill white people. Especially white officers."

Says 4th suspect did not shoot himself... was killed by police-detonated explosive device.

Today might set an all-time record for deleted tweets

Again

 

[Thegeek]

Correct. But if the FOP organized marches, supplying marchers with noxious placards and unified chants of "What do we want? Dead teen n*****s! When do we want them? NOW!!", celebrating heinous teen deaths with page after page of celebratory tweets calling for more... would you still hold the same opinion? I'd begin to wonder.

That does seem to be the line of separation, doesn't it?

 

[phylodog]

I'd prefer to not have a group of LEO threatening a group of people, regardless of the non-LEO groups previous actions. Arrest them, or stand down. Badges are not tools for intimidation.

I'd prefer not to have the property of hard working Americans destroyed and I'd prefer not to have five cops murdered at these "peaceful assemblies".

Police represent the threat of force. Always have, always will. All I'm suggesting is having sufficient threats in place.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Now how do we convince BLM that a few bad cops don't make all of them racists murderers?

Your statement is too broad, but it's close enough to the truth that ill go with it. There's no clear solution, but it would probably go a long way if the media didn't seize so often on blacks being killed by cops. MORE white people are killed by cops, but we hardly ever hear about it....it's simply not good TV. When you see black faces being killed over and over by LE, and never anybody else, it creates a warped narrative that those people are disproportionately targeted.

 

[Alpo]

Anyone else getting the deja vu feeling? Radical Islamic terrorists do not represent Islam, and radical BLM murderers don't represent BLM.

The corollary would be that a few bad cops don't represent the greater body of law enforcement officers.

I'd be careful with generalities.

 

[Kutnupe14]

At least for awhile, I think any reasonable jurisdiction could expect the need for additional security for BLM now. Part of the suckage is that a peaceful group (let's assume) is now stained with the blood of those officers. That's part of the reality. An overwhelming police presence at any further events would not only be justified, but should be expected.

I agree. A city would be remiss if it didn't respond as such.

 

[jamil]

Some things I find interesting.

Headlines on this incident universally do not mention the race of the suspects or the officers. Headlines of politicized police shootings do include race, and have since at least Ferguson.

Obama talks about people and actions when it's the big mean police vs minorities. When police are murdered for being police, it's about the guns.

Obama doesn't find facts relevant when police are accused of misconduct, although if it turns out you did everything right you might get a free beer. Now his statement is "We still don't know all the facts, we do know there's been a vicious....act on law enforcement." Not an attack, mind you, an act. The facts are apparently relevant on this one.

The media is already setting the narrative. Dallas PD is a bunch of meanies. They tweeted the photo of a 'suspect' who turned out to be innocent. Yup, quotation marks around 'suspect' in the headline, like he wasn't REALLY a suspect. Why not just say it? Yup, we're glad these cops got killed because it will make more clicks for us. The longer we keep the controversy going, the more money we make. Hey, maybe they should have stayed in their cars, right? That'll get'em going. There is truly no shame in media or politics.

I mostly agree, but it was the police who initially tweeted out the photo and asked for help in identifying him. I was watching the twitter feed when they did it. And I don't recall them using the word "suspect". Possibly "person of interest".

I think social media first seized on some guy black guy wearing camo, walking around with an AR, and police saw this and wanted to talk to the guy. Then it was widely reported by old media. Even long after the twittersphere had discovered that the guy wasn't involved, networks were still reporting photos of the "suspect".

Like was said earlier, he was just a 2A conscious guy involved in a peaceful protest, exercising his rights, at a time when there's a shooting and talk of someone with a rifle.

The "only" is implied. That implication is backed up by action. If one was to say Spotted Owls Lives, Siberian Tiger lives, or Sea Turtle lives mattered, one is taking steps to make the distinction that spotted owls, Siberian tigers, and sea turtles in particular matter. If members of such groups, were to forcefully "correct" the statement that ALL owls, tigers and turtles matters with spotted owls, Siberian tigers and sea turtles matters, those members are enforcing the implication with action.

That's you opinion, I disagree.

It is about a distinctive identity. However, I don't fault people for being biased. They have a right to be self-interested to a point. Could you conceded that "pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon" goes beyond that point? It's not to condemn the whole organization--and it is an organization. But some within the organization, and perhaps their leadership have motives beyond just the original charter.

Lol. Jamil, you know me. Is there something you're leaving out about this "national" organization?

No. It's a direct quote from their website. They call themselves a national organization with local chapters. You can join BLM. Now I probably couldn't since the organization "is a network predicated on Black self-determination, and BLM Chapters reserve the right to limit participation based on this principle." Which is at least a polite way to say it.

Anyway, all that to build to this point. They're a national organization. if you think they're not a national organization, perhaps you should contact them and tell them to stop saying they are, and organizing nationally.

I don't think the rank and file people that make up BLM are racist. I do suspect the leadership at the top takes advantage of people's biases, and conditions, and is using that as tool to build political capital that they can spend on other goals. That's just a fair assessment of what I think given all the facts I can find. There may be things I've left unsaid in the interests of brevity, but there are no lines you should be reading between. I'm only saying what I've said.

Well, they firebombed Dorner, does that count?

Yeah. That counts. He pretty much brought that on himself though. And so did the guy in Dallas.

I won't be so simple. One could certainly say that the movement helped create the climate for this tragedy to occur, but to place it at the feet saying this was the intent of the BLM, is most certainly wrong.

I pretty much agree with this. However I would not rule out nefarious means by unscrupulous people placing themselves in positions of influence. But as a whole, while some BLM supporters are vocally happy about last night, clearly the majority isn't. And I'm talking about the rank and file members and supporters, not the leadership.

To a degree, we aren't. Ever try to lose weight or establish a new gym routine? Your brain is a committee and it doesn't always agree with itself. Outside messages can and do influence us, sometimes on levels we're not consciously aware of.

People want to have a purpose, they want meaning in their lives. Veterans with emotional issues are often struggling with the feeling nothing matters in "normal life" and feel purposeless, for example. If you take people who've got nothing to give their life meaning, no family support, no investment in employment, no involvement in a charity, etc that gives them purpose there is a vacuum. Filling that vacuum with the chance to be a 'hero', to 'defend your people', etc. can be a powerful draw. That's where terrorists of all stripe recruit from most fruitfully. Now tell me there aren't communities in the US that are economically devestated, where family ties are weak at best, and where there's a pervading feeling of hopelessness. Then give a powerful message of an oppressor who's killing you on a whim and who represents the reason your community doesn't do so well? I'm frankly shocked it's taken this long.

Quoted so people will hopefully read it again.

 

[T.Lex]

Has anyone found the names of the alleged murderers?

Allegedly:

Micah X. Johnson, of Mesquite, is one of four people police said were responsible for ambushing police officers at a peaceful protest against nation-wide officer-involved shootings in Dallas Thursday.

ETA:
Pics of him in US Army popping up.

ETA 2:
Apparently he told police that he was acting alone, and something about how BLM movement even made him mad. But that sounds like bad reporting, or even just irrational.

 

[Rookie]

Micah X. Johnson: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

Army veteran.

 

[Beowulf]

Your statement is too broad, but it's close enough to the truth that ill go with it. There's no clear solution, but it would probably go a long way if the media didn't seize so often on blacks being killed by cops. MORE white people are killed by cops, but we hardly ever hear about it....it's simply not good TV. When you see black faces being killed over and over by LE, and never anybody else, it creates a warped narrative that those people are disproportionately targeted.

Come on, Kut, you know that they ARE disproportionately killed. 26% of the people shot by police (justified or not) are black, while only 13.5% of the population at large is black. Hispanics make up 17% of the population, but make up 24% of the people shot. Whites, while being 60% of the population, make up 50% of the population shot. In raw numbers, yes more white people are killed by police, but when you take the population into account, blacks are killed in much greater percentage than whites. That doesn't mean all these shootings are not justified, but the numbers are striking enough that we need to look at them as a society.

 

[Double T]

I'd prefer not to have the property of hard working Americans destroyed and I'd prefer not to have five cops murdered at these "peaceful assemblies".

Police represent the threat of force. Always have, always will. All I'm suggesting is having sufficient threats in place.

What you're describing sounds an awful lot like a standing army. That worked VERY well at the Kent Massacre. And at Tiananman Square. Or even the Watts Riots in the 60's. ANY time the police force stands over the people, the people will revolt. And there will be bloodshed.

We claim to want to learn from history, yet we are so very careless to react, and not actually learn a damn thing.

I'm not against what you are saying, and if I were in your shoes, I'd be volunteering for overwatch. HOWEVER, any time in History that we've seen police stand in riot gear after there has been bloodshed, when has there NOT been more bloodshed.

You want to talk about people dying in vain, it'd be ANYONE who would die in a retaliatory riot. Again, let's not resort to street vengeance when we have a judicial system still. Arrest the people. Try them in court. Send them to jail or execute them. Due process. These are all very viable options, primary to vengeance. And sadly, I worry we are going to push them to the side in bravado, and more people are going to die. It sucks for BOTH sides.

The BLM are pissed because the blues keep shooting them, so they shoot back. Then the police are standing over them in riot gear threatening to shoot them for protesting the blues actions.

What IS the point in having this discussion at all? Are the LEO any better than the BLM if they resort to perpetual violence and retaliation? ARREST them or stand down.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I'd prefer not to have the property of hard working Americans destroyed and I'd prefer not to have five cops murdered at these "peaceful assemblies".

Police represent the threat of force. Always have, always will. All I'm suggesting is having sufficient threats in place.

This I STRONGLY disagree with. LE should qualify their presence, and for BLM protests, that qualification is evident. To use LE as a threat, is NOT the way to go. Nothing good can come from that posturing. Safety of self, the public, and property....that's it, that's our task, not to be a blunt object to pummel fear into our citizens.
I know you're pissed and speaking from emotion, but let's no lose sight of what we do and how we do it, properly.

 

[T.Lex]

There's a huge middle ground between "standing down" and "standing army." Large scale protests need a police presence simply to function efficiently. If there's a risk of danger, like a KKK march, there's an increased need for police presence to keep people safe.

Now, BLM will need an increased police presence to keep the people and officers safe.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Deceased shooter

 

[phylodog]

Come on, Kut, you know that they ARE disproportionately killed. 26% of the people shot by police (justified or not) are black, while only 13.5% of the population at large is black. Hispanics make up 17% of the population, but make up 24% of the people shot. Whites, while being 60% of the population, make up 50% of the population shot. In raw numbers, yes more white people are killed by police, but when you take the population into account, blacks are killed in much greater percentage than whites. That doesn't mean all these shootings are not justified, but the numbers are striking enough that we need to look at them as a society.

As Kut pointed out in a different thread, blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime. Logically this will lead to a disproportionate level of contact with police and therefore a disproportionate amount of shootings.

To be fair.

 

[MCgrease08]

Dead suspect IDd as 25-year-old Micah Johnson

He's reportedly an Army vet.

Micah X. Johnson: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

 

[Beowulf]

You're right, I am emotional. I'm emotional because the bull**** organization known as BLM, which is founded on complete and utter horse****, has been allowed to run rampant in this country for two years which has now resulted in the murder of five police officers. I'm not advocating shooting them all, I'm not advocating arresting them all. I am all for surrounding their protests with hundreds of police officers armed with rifles to send the very clear message that they can protest peacefully all they want but as soon as they begin the same bull**** we saw in Ferguson, Baltimore or Dallas last night the game will be over promptly.

Really? You are calling for police using armed intimidation against protesters? Did I take a wrong turn on my way to work and end up in a foreign country? That sounds completely un-American.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Come on, Kut, you know that they ARE disproportionately killed. 26% of the people shot by police (justified or not) are black, while only 13.5% of the population at large is black. Hispanics make up 17% of the population, but make up 24% of the people shot. Whites, while being 60% of the population, make up 50% of the population shot. In raw numbers, yes more white people are killed by police, but when you take the population into account, blacks are killed in much greater percentage than whites. That doesn't mean all these shootings are not justified, but the numbers are striking enough that we need to look at them as a society.

I'm not disagreeing with any of the above.... do you think that of all people killed by police, the media gives 50% of their "killed by police" coverage to whites? I think there's a HUGE disparity in how it's reported and thus seen by the public creating the "blacks being targeted" narrative. Or do you disagree?