Creation of a Hysteria

[level.eleven]

"Water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. What if someone says, 'Well, that's not how I choose to think about water."? All we can do is appeal to scientific values. And if he doesn't share those values, the conversation is over. If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance or logic?" - Sam Harris

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Nobody in the U.S. has died from measles in... I don't even know how long.

1991, IIRC.

 

[level.eleven]

Obama: 'Get Your Kids Vaccinated' | The Weekly Standard

This only makes me want to not do it.

Only teenagers think that refusing to do what authority figures recommend marks them as independent. Adults know that doing the exact opposite of what authority figures recommend is a sign of immaturity, not deliberation, and certainly not education.

This is what is comes down to for most anti-vax parents: it’s a source of self-esteem for them. In their minds, they have “educated” themselves. How do they know they are “educated”? Because they’ve chosen to disregard experts (who appear to them as authority figures) in favor of quacks and charlatans, whom they admire for their own defiance of authority. The combination of self-education and defiance of authority is viewed by anti-vax parents as an empowering form of rugged individualism, marking out their own superiority from those pathetic “sheeple” who aren’t self-educated and who follow authority.

A good post about the antivaxx movement and their ego. I think that it nails most of INGO's vaccine conspiracy theorists and their doctorates from Google University.

What everyone gets wrong about anti-vaccine parents | The Skeptical OB

 

[steveh_131]

There may be a few of those around, level.eleven, but there's plenty of delusion on your side as well.

Personally, I embrace 95% of modern medicine. I don't see it as an authority issue any more than a mechanic has "authority" over my vehicle. Sure, he knows more about cars than me, but does that mean I shouldn't be informed and involved in decisions? That I should never disagree with him?

Why are you so threatened by people who try to be informed and make decisions based on that knowledge? You resort to nothing but insults and condescension... But what else could you do? Everything I've posted in this thread is factual, and that bothers you, doesn't it?

 

[bradmedic04]

Validating this "argument" assumes there is a reasonable opposite side. Since anti-vaxxers rely on literally no empirical studies, there is no viable other side. Therefore, "reasonable" people cannot disagree on this subject, and it should be ignored by people who don't think we should believe in VooDoo.

 

[steveh_131]

Validating this "argument" assumes there is a reasonable opposite side. Since anti-vaxxers rely on literally no empirical studies, there is no viable other side. Therefore, "reasonable" people cannot disagree on this subject, and it should be ignored by people who don't think we should believe in VooDoo.

Your response is heavy on rhetoric and light on facts. Please cite my post in this thread that you consider to be "voodoo", or a specific statement I've made that you known to be factually incorrect. If you can't do that, how can you call me "unreasonable"?

Everything I have said so far is backed by sources that even the resident psuedo-skeptics would consider reputable. The facts are not in dispute, I am simply putting this hysteria in the proper perspective.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

This is how 2016 is going to be a ****ing loss. This bull**** narrative starts out of nowhere.

Dems seize on vaccine debate to cast GOP as out of step on science, medicine | TheHill

 

[steveh_131]

I hope everyone understands that the climate change "deniers" are hit with identical tactics of insults and "anti-science" accusations. The truth is that mainstream scientists agree on climate change just as much as they agree on vaccines.

Is a climate change "denier" also unreasonable for questioning scientific authority?

 

[ArcadiaGP]

god dammit

https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/562456798020386816


One ****ing tweet and Hillary will never be asked about vaccinations again. GOP hopefuls will be fielding questions for next 2 years.

I can't believe this vaccine bull**** is going to be what decides 2016.

Is the GOP this ****ing stupid to be pulled into this?

 

[level.eleven]

Validating this "argument" assumes there is a reasonable opposite side. Since anti-vaxxers rely on literally no empirical studies, there is no viable other side. Therefore, "reasonable" people cannot disagree on this subject, and it should be ignored by people who don't think we should believe in VooDoo.

It is a tough position though. This isn't a cutesie conspiracy theory like truthers or the Bilderbergs, the misinformation being spread in threads like these is causing actual harm to innocent men, women, and children. Its hard to stand by and witness the harm Steve and Rambone are inflicting upon kids with their egos.

This touches on something Kirk said upthread. We have never seen the destruction wrought by measles, polio, etc... Barring legislation, the solution to this particular conspiracy theory is going to b a resurgence of an otherwise manageable disease that kills a lot children and elderly. It is sad to think that Steve and Rambone will have blood on their hands for their roll in bringing back eradicated diseases.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Validating this "argument" assumes there is a reasonable opposite side. Since anti-vaxxers rely on literally no empirical studies, there is no viable other side. Therefore, "reasonable" people cannot disagree on this subject, and it should be ignored by people who don't think we should believe in VooDoo.

Anti vax is now synonymous with right wing.

 

[level.eleven]

Anti vax is now synonymous with right wing.

Ha! It most certainly is not. Hell, the article you linked went as far to show you that had you read it. Crunchy liberals and Hollywood are just as much to blame for the anti-vaxx conspiracies.

A comedic link to counter you idea.

An Outbreak of Liberal Idiocy - The Daily Show - Video Clip | Comedy Central

Jeb and Walker, the only viable candidates, have every opportunity to step forward and support vaccination.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Ha! It most certainly is not. Hell, the article you linked went as far to show you that had you read it. Crunchy liberals and Hollywood are just as much to blame for the anti-vaxx conspiracies.

A comedic link to counter you idea.

An Outbreak of Liberal Idiocy - The Daily Show - Video Clip | Comedy Central

Oh I know in reality it isn't. I meant to the mind of the typical low info voter, redditor, blogger... They equate it with right wing because that's how the media is portraying it.

 

[level.eleven]

Oh I know in reality it isn't. I meant to the mind of the typical low info voter, redditor, blogger... They equate it with right wing because that's how the media is portraying it.

I added that last part after you responded.

Jeb and Walker, the only viable candidates, have every opportunity to step forward and support vaccination. Easily put to bed. They have to resist the urge to appeal to the fringe. No different than their democratic counterparts.

We all know what is the right thing to do. We can only hope for frank politicians. Unfortunately for the right, science denialism is stereotype that penetrates more than it does on the left. This is a great opportunity for the right to shuck the stereotype.

 

[steveh_131]

It is sad to think that Steve and Rambone will have blood on their hands for their roll in bringing back eradicated diseases.

Thank you for this, folks were questioning my assertion that there is full-blown hysteria on this subject. Here you go, everybody: Hysteria.

All I've done is start a discussion. Measles. How dangerous is it, really? I won't deny that it's dangerous, I certainly don't want it or necessarily want my kids to get it. However, I've attempted to quantify that danger (with undisputed facts and statistics) and offer some perspective - and now, according to you, I have "blood" on my hands. When a child is injured by a vaccine, and they are (again, documented fact), do you consider that blood to be on your hands?

I don't, because I don't buy into the hysteria. I don't make decisions based on emotion and fear. And I don't bully people for failing to respect and obey the "authority" of majority consensus among scientists, doctors, plumbers, mechanics, welders, or any other profession.

Shoot, I'm not even an "anti-vaxxer", whatever the heck that means. I just think that the risks ought to be discussed instead of silenced. Considered instead of ignored. If most people consider those risks and decide that the benefits outweigh them, good. An informed choice was made. If others decide that the risks outweigh the benefits in their particular situation for any particular vaccine, also good. An informed choice was made.

 

[level.eleven]

Thank you for this, folks were questioning my assertion that there is full-blown hysteria on this subject. Here you go, everybody: Hysteria.

All I've done is start a discussion. Measles. How dangerous is it, really? I won't deny that it's dangerous, I certainly don't want it or necessarily want my kids to get it. However, I've attempted to quantify that danger (with undisputed facts and statistics) and offer some perspective - and now, according to you, I have "blood" on my hands. When a child is injured by a vaccine, and they are (again, documented fact), do you consider that blood to be on your hands?

I don't, because I don't buy into the hysteria. I don't make decisions based on emotion and fear. And I don't bully people for failing to respect and obey the "authority" of majority consensus among scientists, doctors, plumbers, mechanics, welders, or any other profession.

Shoot, I'm not even an "anti-vaxxer", whatever the heck that means. I just think that the risks ought to be discussed instead of silenced. Considered instead of ignored. If most people consider those risks and decide that the benefits outweigh them, good. An informed choice was made. If others decide that the risks outweigh the benefits in their particular situation for any particular vaccine, also good. An informed choice was made.

Yeah, it is called JAQing off.

Just asking questions - RationalWiki

 

[hornadylnl]

So what should happen to those who refuse to get vaxed?

 

[steveh_131]

Yeah, it is called JAQing off.

Show me a single "leading question" in this thread that qualifies as such. I won't hold my breath.

I've put forward my argument quite clearly and openly. Measles is a statistically minor danger in a developed nation with modern medical care. The CDC has admitted openly to purposely manufacturing hysteria and emotions for the purpose of selling vaccines, and that is likely spurring the current hysteria over measles. I think that this information should be processed and considered by any parent who is at the stage of vaccinating their child.

I think that the hysteria and guilt trips pushed by folks like you is purely emotional and irrational and should not be considered relevant in this decision-making process. Measles fatalities approached zero long before vaccines came around, and they'll stay around zero whether a parent chooses to vaccinate or not.

Additionally, I think that every parent ought to make choices for their child based on what is best for the child, not what is best for "the herd" - but this is purely my opinion. If you value "the herd" more than your child, that is certainly your right.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

So what should happen to those who refuse to get vaxed?

Sent to the brig, pleb!

 

[hornadylnl]

Sent to the brig, pleb!

I think we all know what the logical conclusion is. Who's willing to admit it?