Coronovirus IV

[eric001]

What does everyone make of the push against opening the schools back up?

I know several teachers were unhappy about eLearning and did not want to do it again this year. Now the union's and powers that be are complaining that we shouldn't open the schools. My cynical side can't help but wonder if a portion of them just want to stay home and be paid for doing nothing.

Speaking for myself and the other teachers I know, we're pretty fed up with the BS about NOT being in school doing our jobs. Since when have germs NOT gone through school systems on a regular basis? I understand that some parents won't want their kids back in school for their own reasons... But let's face it: this is just another virus, and isn't even statistically all that deadly for younger people--certainly not any worse than the last several years of flu viruses, including H1N1 a few years ago.

What I'm most irritated by are some of the ideas being pushed for "safety" in schools. 3-6 feet distances between students in the rooms (and hallways!!!)... Not eating in the cafeteria because lack of social distancing... Temperature checks for every kid upon arrival... Every 6-12 grade student (and teacher) wearing masks all the time... This is 100% theater. Unless every surface in every classroom, hallway and bathroom can magically get disinfected between class periods and the air itself constantly sanitized on a real-time basis, kids are going to be trading germs. Period. It's worked that way in my 20+ years of teaching--every year flu bugs go through the school...every year kids come in with mild/no symptoms and spread the germs far and wide... And every year--UP TO NOW--we've gone on about our daily business of trying to teach the kids the skills and knowledge they need to advance on to the next level.

We just want to get back to doing what we love to do--teaching. I personally can't wait until the drama and theater are once again reserved for the performing arts classes!!

 

[jamil]

Not sure the Daily Wire is a good source of New Zealand's practices. If so, I would indeed be outraged if someone proposed months or years of quarantine.

From the epidemiologic and disease standpoint, New Zealand knocked it out of the park. They shut down almost everything for 1 month. Now new arrivals are quarantined thus cases are kept in check. They'll probably resume travel with other countries who have done the same.

I realize that would never work in a country like the US and I'm not advocating it for us. But it did work.

If we had a totally benign government that we trusted, it might have worked here. It's a nonstarter for us. It was a success for New Zealand. And we could have done better

We'll likely be the last to be allowed to travel. Even Ecuador doesn't want us now.

After the reaction to the Christchurch shooting I would not trust the New Zealand government. But I do understand the point being made. I think the thing that would make it not work here isn't distrust of the government though. The US has an international presence that is orders of magnitude greater than New Zealand's. And so the difficulties and impact of implementing such policies are much greater. I think it's less practical.

 

[jamil]

Speaking for myself and the other teachers I know, we're pretty fed up with the BS about NOT being in school doing our jobs. Since when have germs NOT gone through school systems on a regular basis? I understand that some parents won't want their kids back in school for their own reasons... But let's face it: this is just another virus, and isn't even statistically all that deadly for younger people--certainly not any worse than the last several years of flu viruses, including H1N1 a few years ago.

What I'm most irritated by are some of the ideas being pushed for "safety" in schools. 3-6 feet distances between students in the rooms (and hallways!!!)... Not eating in the cafeteria because lack of social distancing... Temperature checks for every kid upon arrival... Every 6-12 grade student (and teacher) wearing masks all the time... This is 100% theater. Unless every surface in every classroom, hallway and bathroom can magically get disinfected between class periods and the air itself constantly sanitized on a real-time basis, kids are going to be trading germs. Period. It's worked that way in my 20+ years of teaching--every year flu bugs go through the school...every year kids come in with mild/no symptoms and spread the germs far and wide... And every year--UP TO NOW--we've gone on about our daily business of trying to teach the kids the skills and knowledge they need to advance on to the next level.

We just want to get back to doing what we love to do--teaching. I personally can't wait until the drama and theater are once again reserved for the performing arts classes!!

It would be nice if the news let teachers who feel like you do about it have an equal platform with the teachers who are against. It seems the only opinions I'm hearing from teachers on mainstream media are the opinions of teachers union.

 

[OakRiver]

Another study showing that anti-bodies for COVID-19 drop off after infection, reducing the likelihood for herd immunity: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.09.20148429v1

 

[dusty88]

Another study showing that anti-bodies for COVID-19 drop off after infection, reducing the likelihood for herd immunity: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.09.20148429v1

I am hopeful that cell-mediated immunity is going to be adequate. I'm not yet ready to accept the idea that this disease will have short term immunity like coronaviruses that cause colds. I am concerned, though. Not only do coronaviruses have short term immunity in humans, coronavirus vaccines have also been difficult to develop in animals. One of them makes the disease worse (somewhat similar to antibody-enhanced worsening responses like you get with dengue fever in humans).

I'm also hoping the reported cases of infection occurring 3 months later are a combination of false positive testing (due to viral fragments remaining in cells) and some people having chronic disease. The chronic disease is bad enough of course but not as worrisome as lack of immunity after infection.

Here is a new article discussing T cell immunity. I haven't read it yet https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0995-0

 

[chipbennett]

The positivity rate started going up, so it's clearly not just about more testing.
Even prior to that the cases started going up in the 18-30 yr olds. That doesn't sound like a big deal at first, but it's been a catalyst for overall case growth in other states.
Also, we now appear to have testing delays. Indiana was at a 24-48 hr turnaround a few weeks ago. Now the registration site says expect 4-6 days. Testing facilities and reagents are being heavily used by the states that are having larger outbreaks, so possibly reporting will be delayed everywhere.

My wife was able to register me yesterday for a test tomorrow in Danville. (She's getting tested in preparation for another medical procedure; I'm getting tested as a precaution prior to travel to the People's Republic of California.)

 

[chipbennett]

What does everyone make of the push against opening the schools back up?

I know several teachers were unhappy about eLearning and did not want to do it again this year. Now the union's and powers that be are complaining that we shouldn't open the schools. My cynical side can't help but wonder if a portion of them just want to stay home and be paid for doing nothing.

As far as I'm concerned, "teacher's union" = "administrators". And, yes; I'm sure they would love to get paid for their cushy, overpaid administrative jobs (basically, everyone but​ the actual teachers) while "working" from home.

 

[chipbennett]

That's fine. The bulk of teachers will become irrelevant as more people move to online education permanently. Far fewer will be needed for in-person education. It is a self-correcting problem.

Unfortunately, most of Indiana's education budget goes to the bureaucracy (administrators), and they will fight tooth and nail to retain their positions, regardless of what happens to teachers. I'll be curious to see what happens to infrastructure (the school buildings in particular, the various athletic and other facilities, buses, etc.)

As far as teachers are concerned, fewer students attending in-person will have a positive impact on the market forces for teachers. (Now, if we could only fix the distribution of the education budget, so that more money went to teachers and less to administrators.)

 

[dusty88]

My wife was able to register me yesterday for a test tomorrow in Danville. (She's getting tested in preparation for another medical procedure; I'm getting tested as a precaution prior to travel to the People's Republic of California.)

How soon do you need your results? Indiana was doing really well on turnaround time but the page now warns it may be 4-6 days

I'm currently strictly isolating this week before I have a visit to my elderly parents. I was also going to add to my reassurance a bit by getting a test in Danville on Thursday morning. However, now that there appears to be a backlog for results I've been thinking there is no point. I won't get it back before I leave Saturday anyway and I may as well save the tests for those who really need them. (you of course have a need, mine was more of a reassurance and my self-isolation is more protection for my parents than a 1 time test)

I hope you and your wife are both negative and that her procedure goes smoothly.

 

[dusty88]

Washington Township just reversed their plan to open schools in August. Washington Township is a large school district on the north side of Marion County. My office is in the township, and my kids used the high school (North Central) as out-of-district attendees.

Their original plan was to hold in-class instruction but allow the choice of watching the classroom online and participating remotely.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news...l04UgybBZ4otlhBuYTCqBWisy7x-ITnyHmpOUU-mErJlA


I originally thought this was a good plan, with the caveat that surely we couldn't expect teachers to cover as much material under those circumstances. However, I also think with community transmission suddenly going up in Indiana that it isn't a realistic time to open schools. I would like to see them open, but we're going to have to keep the overall transmission down at the same time.

 

[Phase2]

Unfortunately, most of Indiana's education budget goes to the bureaucracy (administrators), and they will fight tooth and nail to retain their positions, regardless of what happens to teachers. I'll be curious to see what happens to infrastructure (the school buildings in particular, the various athletic and other facilities, buses, etc.)

As far as teachers are concerned, fewer students attending in-person will have a positive impact on the market forces for teachers. (Now, if we could only fix the distribution of the education budget, so that more money went to teachers and less to administrators.)

I'm sure people at every level will fight to keep their positions, regardless of actual benefit to educating students. I'll repost a video I posted in another thread of an interview between Mark Levin and Dr. Thomas Sowell where they discuss current events and Sowell's new book on charter schools.

One of many interesting points: Apparently, there have been numerous instances where school establishments have prevented charter schools from using abandoned public school buildings explicitly to suppress competition and not give students options.

[video=youtube;kK14nNRchaE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK14nNRchaE[/video]

 

[Phase2]

My thinking has definitely changed on the Wuhan coronavirus over time. I'm now pretty much here. It is far better to get healthier and build up your immune system than to hide and allow yourself to become even more vulnerable. Those that are most at risk should be protected, but this universal shutdown was a massive mistake.

 

[bobzilla]

This is necessary hospital practice. It's to every patients benefit that all the patients are being tested, so they either delay a positive patient (most likely) or move them to a different location (if an emergency)

Interesting. I have a CT scan weds and no testing.

 

[dusty88]

Interesting. I have a CT scan weds and no testing.

I think with a CT scan they can get you in and out, and disinfect the room. The technician doesn't do much closeup handling.

A hospitalized patient has more time in the rooms plus comes in contact with multiple caretakers.

 

[JettaKnight]

Unfortunately, most of Indiana's education budget goes to the bureaucracy (administrators), and they will fight tooth and nail to retain their positions, regardless of what happens to teachers. I'll be curious to see what happens to infrastructure (the school buildings in particular, the various athletic and other facilities, buses, etc.)

As far as teachers are concerned, fewer students attending in-person will have a positive impact on the market forces for teachers. (Now, if we could only fix the distribution of the education budget, so that more money went to teachers and less to administrators.)

Most? Really? You're going to need some data to back up that assertion. One need look at the ratio to know that can't be case. (unless the state office is huge)


There's too many administrators, but not that many. I think we can point to several high paid individuals that deserve the ax, but what about the high school secretary or janitor, are you considering them the bureaucracy?


As far as going online or working from home, very, very few in education want to do that.

 

[JettaKnight]

My thinking has definitely changed on the Wuhan coronavirus over time. I'm now pretty much here. It is far better to get healthier and build up your immune system than to hide and allow yourself to become even more vulnerable. Those that are most at risk should be protected, but this universal shutdown was a massive mistake.

Tim Roth said that?

 

[BugI02]

After the reaction to the Christchurch shooting I would not trust the New Zealand government. But I do understand the point being made. I think the thing that would make it not work here isn't distrust of the government though. The US has an international presence that is orders of magnitude greater than New Zealand's. And so the difficulties and impact of implementing such policies are much greater. I think it's less practical.

I think an important distinction being missed is that they talk about cases of people 'breaking out' of quarantine. They already have coercive, involuntary lock-down type of quarantine, but they have trouble maintaining it on people against their will and simultaneously wish to do more of it. I can see those two orthogonal desires leading to isolating the targets of quarantine in a more coercive/controlling environment which can lead directly to camps and the wire. I have read at least one op-ed piece where the author thought that should be done here. I can easily see mitigating disease could morph into quarantining wrong-think. Only a few years ago I would have thought such ideas wildly hyperbolic in this country. Now, not so much

 

[BugI02]

Another study showing that anti-bodies for COVID-19 drop off after infection, reducing the likelihood for herd immunity: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.09.20148429v1

Certainly it is far from my area of expertise, but I wonder if this should be a concern. As long as the immune systems's long term memory, embodied in T and B cells, retain 'knowledge' of the antigens presented by a previously encountered infection, the immune response to another encounter will be swift and sure

If you were vaccinated against measles as a child, I don't believe you would have a detectable level of measles antibodies circulating in your blood, yet you would still be 'immune'. In the case of viruses, immunity doesn't mean a virus cannot begin to infect your cells, it just means there is an effective battle plan in place and ready to execute

 

[chipbennett]

How soon do you need your results? Indiana was doing really well on turnaround time but the page now warns it may be 4-6 days

I'm currently strictly isolating this week before I have a visit to my elderly parents. I was also going to add to my reassurance a bit by getting a test in Danville on Thursday morning. However, now that there appears to be a backlog for results I've been thinking there is no point. I won't get it back before I leave Saturday anyway and I may as well save the tests for those who really need them. (you of course have a need, mine was more of a reassurance and my self-isolation is more protection for my parents than a 1 time test)

I hope you and your wife are both negative and that her procedure goes smoothly.

In my case, it is a "nice to have". The client didn't ask for the test or results, but I thought it might be good to get, anyway - especially since my wife was also getting the test. We are told the results should be 3 business days. In her case, that timeframe is needed, because her procedure is Friday. And I appreciate the words of concern!

 

[chipbennett]

Most? Really? You're going to need some data to back up that assertion. One need look at the ratio to know that can't be case. (unless the state office is huge)


There's too many administrators, but not that many. I think we can point to several high paid individuals that deserve the ax, but what about the high school secretary or janitor, are you considering them the bureaucracy?


As far as going online or working from home, very, very few in education want to do that.

I'm not inclined to dig into the education budget right now, so it's not a hill I'm going to die on at the moment. But compare the budget for salaries for teachers vs the salaries for non-teachers.