Coronovirus III

[nonobaddog]

I've also been seeing some evidence that the condition of a person's circulatory system is more predictive than any sort of lung function indicator. Diabetes and high blood pressure have a fair amount of overlap in circulatory system damage, and asthmatics, for example, do not seem to have a markedly worse outcome than the population at large

Asthma is more of a smooth muscle condition.

 

[JettaKnight]

Such a child. There is no casualty-free solution. Leave it to the adults to figure out how to find the least bad path through the mine field.

If adult thinking leads to say things like, "they must be a plant [because someone in my tribe wouldn't say that]", then I'll stick to the wisdom of children; they're not so jaded and biased.

 

[ghuns]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/22/health/strokes-coronavirus-young-adults/index.html
The new coronavirus appears to be causing sudden strokes in adults in their 30s and 40s who are not otherwise terribly ill, doctors reported Wednesday.

"The virus seems to be causing increased clotting in the large arteries, leading to severe stroke," Oxley told CNN.
"Our report shows a seven-fold increase in incidence of sudden stroke in young patients during the past two weeks. Most of these patients have no past medical history and were at home with either mild symptoms (or in two cases, no symptoms) of Covid," he added.

Oxley said his team wanted to tell people to watch themselves for symptoms of coronavirus infection and to call 911 if they have any evidence of stroke.
"Up until now, people have been advised to only call for an ambulance with shortness of breath or high fever," he wrote.

A 7X increase in large vessel strokes in young people? That's terrifying.

Oh wait...

Dr. Thomas Oxley, a neurosurgeon at Mount Sinai Health System in New York, and colleagues gave details of five people they treated. All were under the age of 50, and all had either mild symptoms of COVID-19 infection or no symptoms at all.

Five? Five people under 50 had strokes? I guess #TeamApocalypse must be having trouble coming up with more ways to needlessly scare people.

 

[jamil]

I am surprised the percentage of positives is that low. When guidelines say to only test people highly suspected of having it, then one would assume the percentage of overall positives is going to be high.

I think they've changed the criteria for who gets tested as the tests have become more available.

 

[Alpo]

Perhaps flip the script, too? If you believe there is a political reason for people to hold a certain viewpoint, surely there would be an equally political viewpoint for believing the opposite - unless you're saying you know which viewpoint more closely approximates reality

I don't have a political viewpoint. I look at the numbers and see that the ratio of cases with debilitating or lethal outcomes are low, in the same magnitude of serious illness from any bad flu. Each upward revision in the R0 to me means that there are almost certainly many more asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases in the general public, pushing down the CFR and the IFR even further. The potential consequences are worse than just the flu, but the numbers who can get this without a drastic outcome are similar to that for a bad flu. It seems more like prostate vs pancreatic cancer, the odds of getting either are similar but one is less lethal and one is much more serious. Same odds of getting WuVid 19 as any other pandemic flu just a more fraught situation if you are one of the ones who progress to a serious case.
My politics don't affect my ability to parse the numbers and draw my own conclusions, same as for anything else. My propensity to question some of the numbers I'm being given
certainly affects the conclusions I make. You may recall I was an early critic of the quality of the numbers for CFR because of the wide variation in world numbers without significant variation in treatment methods in first world medical systems. Data that noisy is of pretty limited utility and conclusions being drawn from it even more so.
I do believe that social distancing gave us the time to take a hard look at the data, which brings it further into question. I also cannot see any rational justification for things like Whitmer telling people, despite the fact that they have already taken the additional personal risk to go to a grocery store, that they can't buy paint or gardening supplies they need or want when it will insignificantly add to their risks. That's not a political viewpoint, it's a rational viewpoint. A bit of politics may color my viewpoint of just how totalitarian the impulse to be obeyed is in some politicians, but I see no way to spin events like police sending two boats as well as three officers on land to make sure a paddle board user in California, alone on the Pacific ocean as far as the eye could see, was brought to heel and arrested (drastically increasing his exposure as well as the officers, no?) as other than valuing obedience over common sense
I will speculate that since I was already inclined to view government as too intrusive and coercive prior to WuVid 19, that may predispose me toward certain conclusions in the wake of it. It does not, however, affect the analytical tools I use to estimate personal risk or the conclusions I come to
One of the conclusions I have come to is that financial suicide on a national scale is more certainly fatal than this virus will ever be. A quick look tells me that US cardio-vascular disease deaths (includes stroke) in 2019 were 260.4/100000 [https://www.americashealthrankings.org/explore/annual/measure/CVDDeaths/state/ALL], which is about 7.9%. How many people are willing to be told what they can eat and how much, as well as how much exercize the must get every day - for life - by the federal or state government? Yet it could potentially save a significant fraction of the 858,500 or so who succumb

That you think open up/stay hunkered down will be split around an axis politics is loose and shoddy thinking

 

[JettaKnight]

I don't have a political viewpoint.

Hi Bug!

That you think open up/stay hunkered down will be split around an axis politics is loose and shoddy thinking

I'll get on board with this idea. Well, not the shoddy thinking, but that the SIP/get back to work isn't following political lines as much as some think.

 

[jamil]

Perhaps flip the script, too? If you believe there is a political reason for people to hold a certain viewpoint, surely there would be an equally political viewpoint for believing the opposite - unless you're saying you know which viewpoint more closely approximates reality

I don't have a political viewpoint. I look at the numbers and see that the ratio of cases with debilitating or lethal outcomes are low, in the same magnitude of serious illness from any bad flu. Each upward revision in the R0 to me means that there are almost certainly many more asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases in the general public, pushing down the CFR and the IFR even further. The potential consequences are worse than just the flu, but the numbers who can get this without a drastic outcome are similar to that for a bad flu. It seems more like prostate vs pancreatic cancer, the odds of getting either are similar but one is less lethal and one is much more serious. Same odds of getting WuVid 19 as any other pandemic flu just a more fraught situation if you are one of the ones who progress to a serious case.
My politics don't affect my ability to parse the numbers and draw my own conclusions, same as for anything else. My propensity to question some of the numbers I'm being given
certainly affects the conclusions I make. You may recall I was an early critic of the quality of the numbers for CFR because of the wide variation in world numbers without significant variation in treatment methods in first world medical systems. Data that noisy is of pretty limited utility and conclusions being drawn from it even more so.
I do believe that social distancing gave us the time to take a hard look at the data, which brings it further into question. I also cannot see any rational justification for things like Whitmer telling people, despite the fact that they have already taken the additional personal risk to go to a grocery store, that they can't buy paint or gardening supplies they need or want when it will insignificantly add to their risks. That's not a political viewpoint, it's a rational viewpoint. A bit of politics may color my viewpoint of just how totalitarian the impulse to be obeyed is in some politicians, but I see no way to spin events like police sending two boats as well as three officers on land to make sure a paddle board user in California, alone on the Pacific ocean as far as the eye could see, was brought to heel and arrested (drastically increasing his exposure as well as the officers, no?) as other than valuing obedience over common sense
I will speculate that since I was already inclined to view government as too intrusive and coercive prior to WuVid 19, that may predispose me toward certain conclusions in the wake of it. It does not, however, affect the analytical tools I use to estimate personal risk or the conclusions I come to
One of the conclusions I have come to is that financial suicide on a national scale is more certainly fatal than this virus will ever be. A quick look tells me that US cardio-vascular disease deaths (includes stroke) in 2019 were 260.4/100000 [https://www.americashealthrankings.org/explore/annual/measure/CVDDeaths/state/ALL], which is about 7.9%. How many people are willing to be told what they can eat and how much, as well as how much exercize the must get every day - for life - by the federal or state government? Yet it could potentially save a significant fraction of the 858,500 or so who succumb

That you think open up/stay hunkered down will be split around an axis politics is loose and shoddy thinking

It's not "will be". It's "has been" It seems to be causing an even bigger split between sides in the culture war as if that split wasn't big enough. The "woke" people seem to coalesce around "stay hunkered down". The kinds of people who anti-woke tend to coalesce around some form of "open it up". And this seems to be causing an even bigger riff between, especially as evidenced on social media. Of course I realize social media isn't representative of everyone. But even anecdotally it seems evident in the people I know. People are getting pissed at the people who want the other policy. The "open it up" protests and reactions to those protests make that point quite clear if nothing else does.

 

[ghuns]

...The "woke" people seem to coalesce around "stay hunkered down"...

That crowd's rallying cry for everything from global warming, to gun control, to the Kung Flu is, "If it saves just ONE life".

 

[jamil]

That crowd's rallying cry for everything from global warming, to gun control, to the Kung Flu is, "If it saves just ONE life".

Yeah, what they leave out is the last part. "If it sames just ONE life, even if it costs more lives..."

That's the way it is with the solutions they propose for global warming, to gun control, and even this virus. They ignore that the solution may be more deadly than the problem it's supposed to solve.

 

[BugI02]

Then why do they delete articles where they got nearly everything wrong.

Like this https://www.healthline.com/health/c...-know-about-the-2019-coronavirus-and-covid-19

Why does a botanist and former BCC decide what "medical" articles to publish?

And who owns the entire company? https://www.healthline.com/about Susan Weiner

Who is she married to?

https://sd11.senate.ca.gov/


Then of course you have stories like this. https://www.healthnewsreview.org/2018/03/when-fact-checked-health-news-doesnt-tell-the-whole-story/

or total crap like "Health Info Provider Adds ‘Front Hole’ And Other ‘Inclusive’ Terms To Safe Sex Guide removing terms like penis and Vagina...Healthline.com, an online provider of basic health information, has elected to sideline science in favor of feelings by announcing that the terms “vagina” and “penis” are not inclusive enough to the trans community.

https://thefederalist.com/2018/08/2...-and-other-inclusive-terms-to-safe-sex-guide/

But they are credible to you.

They are not to me. It is an entire company run to spread a message,with possibly decent medical advise at times,complete bull**** at others.

I went with media bias/fact check precisely because I wasn't that familiar with healthline. I didn't have the inclination to research their entire publication history. I certainly would hope, as indicated, that you are making your own choices about sources you find credible. Carry on

However, did you find anything factually deficient in the information presented? I chose it because it presented important concepts in laymens terms all collected in one source. I am already quite familiar with the RoK data but I will cross check the other assertions when I get time.

Not sure why Weiner gives you heartburn. When I review the medical editorial staff of healthline I find 7 MDs out of 10 listed. Weiner is not an MD but does not seem unqualified.

Susan Weiner
MS, RDN


Susan Weiner is the owner and clinical director of Susan Weiner Nutrition, PLLC. She currently serves on the American Association of Diabetes Educators (AADE) board of directors (2018-2020). Susan was named the 2015 AADE Diabetes Educator of the Year and is an AADE fellow. She is the recipient of the 2018 Media Excellence Award from the New York State Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. Susan is a well-respected national and international lecturer on a variety of topics related to nutrition, diabetes, wellness and health, and has authored dozens of articles in peer reviewed journals. Susan earned her master's degree in applied physiology and nutrition from Columbia University.

 

[bwframe]

A lot of this seems to be going political.

Wearing or not wearing a mask seems political now. Matters not whether the mask is doing what it's expected to do or not.

Or worse yet in my experience, whether most mask wearing individuals are causing more potential spread because they just won't leave the mask alone. Often the masks cause hand to face that wouldn't be there otherwise.

Let alone what happens when their phone rings, when masked...

 

[smokingman]

I went with media bias/fact check precisely because I wasn't that familiar with healthline. I didn't have the inclination to research their entire publication history. I certainly would hope, as indicated, that you are making your own choices about sources you find credible. Carry on

However, did you find anything factually deficient in the information presented? I chose it because it presented important concepts in laymens terms all collected in one source. I am already quite familiar with the RoK data but I will cross check the other assertions when I get time.

Not sure why Weiner gives you heartburn. When I review the medical editorial staff of healthline I find 7 MDs out of 10 listed. Weiner is not an MD but does not seem unqualified.

https://sd11.senate.ca.gov/

Weiner is pushing things like sexless restrooms in public schools.
Transexual boys on girls basketball teams and generally doing away with anything related to the male and female gender.

 

[drillsgt]

I went with media bias/fact check precisely because I wasn't that familiar with healthline. I didn't have the inclination to research their entire publication history. I certainly would hope, as indicated, that you are making your own choices about sources you find credible. Carry on

However, did you find anything factually deficient in the information presented? I chose it because it presented important concepts in laymens terms all collected in one source. I am already quite familiar with the RoK data but I will cross check the other assertions when I get time.

Not sure why Weiner gives you heartburn. When I review the medical editorial staff of healthline I find 7 MDs out of 10 listed. Weiner is not an MD but does not seem unqualified.

I didn't see anything I would call inaccurate and in fact the information tends to follow what other sources have been saying.

 

[BugI02]

Hi Bug!



I'll get on board with this idea. Well, not the shoddy thinking, but that the SIP/get back to work isn't following political lines as much as some think.

Touché on the quoted excerpt. Should have been [I don't have a political viewpoint on this issue]. I did not make it clear that I was only addressing the issue at hand















In recognition, when I overtake you in post count I will try to minimize how much of my dust you have to eat

 

[drillsgt]

A lot of this seems to be going political.

Wearing or not wearing a mask seems political now. Matters not whether the mask is doing what it's expected to do or not.

Or worse yet in my experience, whether most mask wearing individuals are causing more potential spread because they just won't leave the mask alone. Often the masks cause hand to face that wouldn't be there otherwise.

Let alone what happens when their phone rings, when masked...

The mask is nonsense for the most part, you see people wearing them under their nose or walking around with them pulled down while shopping, unless you're wearing goggles too you can still be vulnerable. I see it as basically a rabbits foot. Don't get me started on these dumb plexi-glass shields at checkouts lol.

 

[nonobaddog]

I think everybody can get on board with this concise and explicit summary of the issue.

[video=youtube;wVs5AyjzwRM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVs5AyjzwRM&feature=youtu.be[/video]

 

[OurDee]

"Don't get me started on these dumb plexi-glass shields at checkouts lol." I need a ventriloquist and dummy meme stating "Oh no, Please, expound more!"

When I get to the shields I catch myself trying to lean my head around them.

Please, give her a squeeky voice too. I dislike that clip.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Perhaps flip the script, too? If you believe there is a political reason for people to hold a certain viewpoint, surely there would be an equally political viewpoint for believing the opposite - unless you're saying you know which viewpoint more closely approximates reality

Not quite, and maybe Jamil's post explains it better. There are definitely two extremes, and then there are more rational positions. I find it a little weird that there even are positions to be taken on it, and we can't just discuss and agree on what we're seeing... instead fighting over each other's information and sources for some reason... because we don't like what we're reading? That's what I'm curious about... why fight against information? But maybe you nailed it here...

I will speculate that since I was already inclined to view government as too intrusive and coercive prior to WuVid 19, that may predispose me toward certain conclusions in the wake of it.

I think I did consider this when I was thinking of some of the people here that want to downplay it... Perhaps it's a libertarian mindset that wants to keep it mild in order to prevent more government intrusion into our rights/lives? I can get that, I tend to do the same when it comes to things that matter to me... guns, games, etc...

That you think open up/stay hunkered down will be split around an axis politics is loose and shoddy thinking

I don't... "politics" probably not the right word, since even on "the right" here on INGO, there are some big gaps in agreement. "Politics" was probably a bad label to use in my initial question, but I expect some with strong views on the topic here have those views because it could benefit their party of choice.

This isn't applicable to me, but I'm not shy of sharing my opinion about it.

I think you and I might think that the "just like the flu" people are being, at least a little, deluded. And by "deluded" I don't mean that as an insult, or mental defect. I just mean they believe things with scant evidence for, and despite even the most solid evidence against. But it's worth furthering the point already made that there is another delusional side to it too, and that's the side that says "never open". So like with just about every other policy squabble, there are extremes on both sides that apply an ideological viewpoint instead of a practical one, and they're taking up the most conversation bandwith.

I think it is based on belief/worldview/circumstances. On the far "it's just the flu" side, people, for those reasons aren't accepting the depth of evidence that proves that false. And they're readily accepting even superficial information that supports it. Mainly I think that viewpoint is followed by people dramatically affected by the shutdown, and so they may be overly eager to believe information manifests it as a grave mistake proportional to the extent that the shutdown has harmed their own lives.

On the "never open" side, people aren't accepting the depth of evidence of the damage it's causing people, as well as the extent to which we've flattened the curve as was intended. They readily accept the fear-mongering from CNN, the claims that this is all Trump's doing. So yeah, I think this side of people typically, but not always, blame Trump for this, think he should have shut things down sooner, and because its him that says it's time to start opening things up, it must be the wrong move. I've heard those people say things like, it's foolish to open things back up until we have no more deaths. That's just not practical. It's idiotic to keep the economy shut down for the many months that would take. I think that's the side Karen is on. Karen definitely wants to tattle on every person she sees peering through the curtains mowing their lawns. Well. Except my sister-in-law's given name isn't actually Karen.

Like I said above, I just find it so weird to argue about something that should be pretty black-and-white as to what's going on. As far as what we should be doing, as you say... the "never open" sorts of positions... that's not 100% what I was getting at.

I'm talking about a person posting a report of a death count or rise in infections, and being argued with over it as though it just didn't happen. Or people that keep comparing the deaths to other things that also cause death for some reason. Maybe they want to temper the hype... I get that... but this also is a big deal, and that can't be denied. I don't know anyone that has died to the flu. I do know people that have gotten, and died, from this virus.

I think Trump's doing fine handling it. I'm looking forward to things getting back to semi-normal. I'm very against keeping things closed, and easing back into having people go to work. My office will likely be slowly bringing people in, little by little. I'm glad I can work from home with relative ease, and lucky to have that option. I know not everyone does... and that must be very difficult to deal with.

If the reports about cytokine storms end up being true, that's pretty serious. I know we don't know everything right now, and I'm sure we'll know more after this all blows over... but I see nothing wrong with being overly, but reasonably, cautious. When someone posts something, I just want to understand why anyone would feel inclined to seek out reasons that person may be wrong. What does it hurt, or change? Maybe conflicting reports will come out, so let's share those with each other so we can all stay on the same page... and obviously ignoring stories that have a bias/angle (Pro-China propaganda is rampant right now)

OK. I'm rambling. I'm pessimistic about how much freedom/privacy we're going to lose in the wake of this.

 

[nonobaddog]

The mask is nonsense for the most part, you see people wearing them under their nose or walking around with them pulled down while shopping, unless you're wearing goggles too you can still be vulnerable. I see it as basically a rabbits foot. Don't get me started on these dumb plexi-glass shields at checkouts lol.

Hint - it is not the mask that is nonsensical.

 

[Leadeye]

Ok.

Question time. Try not to be defensive

What is the reason for the adamant position of "just like the flu" here? Please dont repeat talking points, I'm actually just wanting to know, politically why some here have the "actually it's not that bad" angle?

If you'd rather PM the reason so as not to give up the game, by all means.

It's all you can say really, sort of like whistling past the graveyard. I think people are scared, but the enemy that they can see is poverty, the enemy they can't is the virus. There's a chance they may catch the virus, but for many economic collapse is very real.