Coronovirus III

[smokingman]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/22/health/strokes-coronavirus-young-adults/index.html
The new coronavirus appears to be causing sudden strokes in adults in their 30s and 40s who are not otherwise terribly ill, doctors reported Wednesday.

"The virus seems to be causing increased clotting in the large arteries, leading to severe stroke," Oxley told CNN.
"Our report shows a seven-fold increase in incidence of sudden stroke in young patients during the past two weeks. Most of these patients have no past medical history and were at home with either mild symptoms (or in two cases, no symptoms) of Covid," he added.

Oxley said his team wanted to tell people to watch themselves for symptoms of coronavirus infection and to call 911 if they have any evidence of stroke.

"Up until now, people have been advised to only call for an ambulance with shortness of breath or high fever," he wrote.

 

[JettaKnight]

Well if you don’t support 100% lockdown then you are saying this. At least that’s what I’m being told across multiple platforms/sites/places. No one is actually saying that but any disagreement is countered with that argument

Easy solution, stop looking at those platforms/sites/places - they're just full of stultiloquence.

 

[JettaKnight]

I absolutely think it is a plant. It is far easier to do this when they are wearing a mask. Note that those without the masks are holding the flag because they care about America. No one protesting for the freedom to move around is asking to kill anyone.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

More than 21% of New York City residents tested for coronavirus antibodies were positive, says Gov. CuomO

More than 21% of the New York City residents given coronavirus antibody tests earlier this week tested positive, Gov. Andrew Cuomo said Thursday.
Monday marked the start of a statewide initiative to test 3,000 New Yorkers for the presence of antibodies, which are made in response to viral infections. The preliminary results mean that one in five of the city residents tested have had coronavirus and developed the antibodies to fight it. Across the state, 13.9% of the individuals tested were positive for antibodies, Cuomo told reporters at a daily news briefing. New York state is the epicenter of the U.S. outbreak of the novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19, with more than 250,000 cases and more than 19,000 fatalities,according to data aggregated by Johns Hopkins University

 

[nonobaddog]

Being an old fart, I am in the vulnerable demographic but I think it is time to open up the restrictions. Sure, more people will die, I might even be one of them but not if I can help it. I will do what is needed to avoid the chinese virus, that is my responsibility, but America still needs to function. There is more and more talk and plans to open up so it will happen. Everybody needs to deal with it in a manner that is most appropriate for their risk.

Our restrictions so far could be called a failure. They definitely slowed down the spread but not as much as they should have and not as much as needed to be worth the price. America is just not as good at complying with the virus restrictions as Hong Kong. Just like America is not as good at herd traffic law compliance as Germany, it is just a fact. We have the freedom to **** up and so we do.

 

[MCgrease08]

https://www.coronavirus.in.gov/

Is back up and running again after 2 days of technical issues.

4/22 set a new high in confirmed cases in Indiana for a single day. Getting closer to 20% of all test coming back positive.

I am surprised the percentage of positives is that low. When guidelines say to only test people highly suspected of having it, then one would assume the percentage of overall positives is going to be high.

 

[BugI02]

.

 

[BugI02]

Ok.

Question time. Try not to be defensive

What is the reason for the adamant position of "just like the flu" here? Please dont repeat talking points, I'm actually just wanting to know, politically why some here have the "actually it's not that bad" angle?

If you'd rather PM the reason so as not to give up the game, by all means.

Perhaps flip the script, too? If you believe there is a political reason for people to hold a certain viewpoint, surely there would be an equally political viewpoint for believing the opposite - unless you're saying you know which viewpoint more closely approximates reality

I don't have a political viewpoint. I look at the numbers and see that the ratio of cases with debilitating or lethal outcomes are low, in the same magnitude of serious illness from any bad flu. Each upward revision in the R0 to me means that there are almost certainly many more asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases in the general public, pushing down the CFR and the IFR even further. The potential consequences are worse than just the flu, but the numbers who can get this without a drastic outcome are similar to that for a bad flu. It seems more like prostate vs pancreatic cancer, the odds of getting either are similar but one is less lethal and one is much more serious. Same odds of getting WuVid 19 as any other pandemic flu just a more fraught situation if you are one of the ones who progress to a serious case.
My politics don't affect my ability to parse the numbers and draw my own conclusions, same as for anything else. My propensity to question some of the numbers I'm being given
certainly affects the conclusions I make. You may recall I was an early critic of the quality of the numbers for CFR because of the wide variation in world numbers without significant variation in treatment methods in first world medical systems. Data that noisy is of pretty limited utility and conclusions being drawn from it even more so.
I do believe that social distancing gave us the time to take a hard look at the data, which brings it further into question. I also cannot see any rational justification for things like Whitmer telling people, despite the fact that they have already taken the additional personal risk to go to a grocery store, that they can't buy paint or gardening supplies they need or want when it will insignificantly add to their risks. That's not a political viewpoint, it's a rational viewpoint. A bit of politics may color my viewpoint of just how totalitarian the impulse to be obeyed is in some politicians, but I see no way to spin events like police sending two boats as well as three officers on land to make sure a paddle board user in California, alone on the Pacific ocean as far as the eye could see, was brought to heel and arrested (drastically increasing his exposure as well as the officers, no?) as other than valuing obedience over common sense
I will speculate that since I was already inclined to view government as too intrusive and coercive prior to WuVid 19, that may predispose me toward certain conclusions in the wake of it. It does not, however, affect the analytical tools I use to estimate personal risk or the conclusions I come to
One of the conclusions I have come to is that financial suicide on a national scale is more certainly fatal than this virus will ever be. A quick look tells me that US cardio-vascular disease deaths (includes stroke) in 2019 were 260.4/100000 [https://www.americashealthrankings.org/explore/annual/measure/CVDDeaths/state/ALL], which is about 7.9%. How many people are willing to be told what they can eat and how much, as well as how much exercize the must get every day - for life - by the federal or state government? Yet it could potentially save a significant fraction of the 858,500 or so who succumb

That you think open up/stay hunkered down will be split around an axis politics is loose and shoddy thinking

 

[jamil]

\

Yeah, I see the "not weak" part. I just don't equate "not weak" to being stupid. Some people that are "not weak" still don't like feeling sick and don't like the prospect of permanent lung damage. I understand your point and agree with it to a certain point, I just don't think the wearing a mask or not part is strongly linked to the "just a flu" opinion.

Well I did say it was a pejorative stereotype.

 

[chipbennett]

Well if you don’t support 100% lockdown then you are saying this. At least that’s what I’m being told across multiple platforms/sites/places. No one is actually saying that but any disagreement is countered with that argument

Right; like I said: it is being presented as a straw man, as you perfectly demonstrated here.

 

[BugI02]

These small number of people were not let out of quarantine after their symptoms went away because they were still testing positive for the virus so technically nobody knows if they are still contagious. I would think they are if they can still spew out virus particles but who knows. The test for positive virus is not testing for viable virus - it is testing for the presence of the RNA part from the virus. Maybe these people have a screwed up immune system that allows reproduction of the RNA part without actually producing active virus.

Kind of like that testing of contaminated surfaces on that cruise ship 17 days after there were no people in the rooms. The tests showed positive for the RNA of the virus but there was no viable viruses there. The viruses had "died" but their RNA part was still there.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-are-some-people-testing-positive-for-covid-19-again
Can You Develop COVID-19 Twice? Here’s What We Know

Healthline is rated by Media Bias/Fact Check as pro-science with factual reporting rated high

 

[jamil]

Ok.

Question time. Try not to be defensive

What is the reason for the adamant position of "just like the flu" here? Please dont repeat talking points, I'm actually just wanting to know, politically why some here have the "actually it's not that bad" angle?

If you'd rather PM the reason so as not to give up the game, by all means.

This isn't applicable to me, but I'm not shy of sharing my opinion about it.

I think you and I might think that the "just like the flu" people are being, at least a little, deluded. And by "deluded" I don't mean that as an insult, or mental defect. I just mean they believe things with scant evidence for, and despite even the most solid evidence against. But it's worth furthering the point already made that there is another delusional side to it too, and that's the side that says "never open". So like with just about every other policy squabble, there are extremes on both sides that apply an ideological viewpoint instead of a practical one, and they're taking up the most conversation bandwith.

I think it is based on belief/worldview/circumstances. On the far "it's just the flu" side, people, for those reasons aren't accepting the depth of evidence that proves that false. And they're readily accepting even superficial information that supports it. Mainly I think that viewpoint is followed by people dramatically affected by the shutdown, and so they may be overly eager to believe information manifests it as a grave mistake proportional to the extent that the shutdown has harmed their own lives.

On the "never open" side, people aren't accepting the depth of evidence of the damage it's causing people, as well as the extent to which we've flattened the curve as was intended. They readily accept the fear-mongering from CNN, the claims that this is all Trump's doing. So yeah, I think this side of people typically, but not always, blame Trump for this, think he should have shut things down sooner, and because its him that says it's time to start opening things up, it must be the wrong move. I've heard those people say things like, it's foolish to open things back up until we have no more deaths. That's just not practical. It's idiotic to keep the economy shut down for the many months that would take. I think that's the side Karen is on. Karen definitely wants to tattle on every person she sees peering through the curtains mowing their lawns. Well. Except my sister-in-law's given name isn't actually Karen.

 

[MCgrease08]

Trump: I ‘Disagree Strongly’ With Georgia Opening Some Facilities

Is this Trump playing 4D chess again? Is Trump openly questioning Kemp's decision to reopen parts of Georgia, knowing it will prompt the #resist crowd to go against him and pivot to support opening up Georgia?

How will the MSM cover this? Will they give Trump credit for supporting the continued lock down? Or will we see an immediate shift to some form of, "governors have the right to do what's best for their state."

 

[Phase2]

Such a child. There is no casualty-free solution. Leave it to the adults to figure out how to find the least bad path through the mine field.

 

[jamil]

Gee, that sounds a bit like a side effect of weaponization. Think about it. Given the theoretical history of the virus and how it could have come about, it makes perfect sense.



Imagine being able to intentionally contaminate your enemy so that they were eternally dangerous, allowing them to spread it until they are killed or shipped off to quarantine. Ramping up a communicable hazard is one thing. Making it incurable while at the same time terribly contagious us a whole 'nother level.

I know someone who is certain it's a bio-weapon. Her evidence? The virus would make a good weapon. :rolleyes.

 

[BugI02]

Those small business loans did not end up going to small business.

U.S. government has allocated at least $243.4 million of the total $349 billion to publicly traded companies
[FONT=&amp]Several of the companies have market values well in excess of $100 million, including DMC Global, Wave Life Sciences and Fiesta Restaurant Group.
[/FONT]https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/21/lar...re-taking-small-businesses-payroll-loans.html

Perfect is the enemy of good enough, and fast was a desired timeline. Would you have preferred perfectly targeted aid that arrived after the planned recipients were all dead?

I believe the desire is to keep as much business as possible on life support until we open up, so people might have as many jobs as possible to go back to

 

[JettaKnight]

On a related note I thought was cool... I just got back from a business trip. Normally I wouldnt have traveled except it was critical. In the 3 story Hilton hotel, I was one of 9 guests. Crazy. They have an insane protocol:
They will not enter your room for normal room service. Period. Please place your trash bag(s) outside the room in the hall and they will collect it. If you need anything like more towels, K Cups, etc the front desk will give you some. After you check out, they will not enter your room for 5 days. (to allow the virus to die) they will then thoroughly clean and disinfect the room. Surreal.

Reminds me of Room 1408.

 

[jamil]

Just remember, the glass is neither half full nor half empty. The glass is twice as large as it needs to be

If the glass is half full, or half empty (though half empty doesn't make much sense to say unless you're saying something else) then it's more accurate to say the glass contains 50% of its capacity.

 

[BugI02]

[FONT=&amp]

Largest US case study so far.[/FONT][FONT=&amp]A total of 5700 patients were included median age, 63 years all in New York.[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2765184


Some interesting things.

This was something we where debating yesterday that I picked up though.

[FONT=&amp]A total of 45 patients (2.2%) were readmitted during the study period.


[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Among the 2634 patients who were discharged or had died at the study end point, during hospitalization, 373 (14.2%) were treated in the ICU, 320 (12.2%) received invasive mechanical ventilation, 81 (3.2%) were treated with kidney replacement therapy, and 553 (21%) died


[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Of the patients who died, those with diabetes were more likely to have received invasive mechanical ventilation or care in the ICU compared with those who did not have diabetes (eTable 1 in the [/FONT]Supplement[FONT=&amp]). Of the patients who died, those with hypertension were less likely to have received invasive mechanical ventilation or care in the ICU compared with those without hypertension. The percentage of patients who developed acute kidney injury was increased in the subgroups with diabetes compared with subgroups without those conditions.


[/FONT]

I've also been seeing some evidence that the condition of a person's circulatory system is more predictive than any sort of lung function indicator. Diabetes and high blood pressure have a fair amount of overlap in circulatory system damage, and asthmatics, for example, do not seem to have a markedly worse outcome than the population at large

 

[smokingman]

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-are-some-people-testing-positive-for-covid-19-again
Can You Develop COVID-19 Twice? Here’s What We Know

Healthline is rated by Media Bias/Fact Check as pro-science with factual reporting rated high

Then why do they delete articles where they got nearly everything wrong.

Like this https://www.healthline.com/health/c...-know-about-the-2019-coronavirus-and-covid-19

Why does a botanist and former BCC decide what "medical" articles to publish?

And who owns the entire company? https://www.healthline.com/about Susan Weiner

Who is she married to?

https://sd11.senate.ca.gov/


Then of course you have stories like this. https://www.healthnewsreview.org/2018/03/when-fact-checked-health-news-doesnt-tell-the-whole-story/

or total crap like "Health Info Provider Adds ‘Front Hole’ And Other ‘Inclusive’ Terms To Safe Sex Guide removing terms like penis and Vagina...Healthline.com, an online provider of basic health information, has elected to sideline science in favor of feelings by announcing that the terms “vagina” and “penis” are not inclusive enough to the trans community.

https://thefederalist.com/2018/08/2...-and-other-inclusive-terms-to-safe-sex-guide/

But they are credible to you.

They are not to me. It is an entire company run to spread a message,with possibly decent medical advise at times,complete bull**** at others.