Coronovirus III

[foszoe]

This is actually happening in real time right now. With Logansport closed my next door neighbor may be forced to euthanize 200-300 hogs per week if nothing is done within three weeks or so. Of course he'll keep what he can but when there's is no room it's game over. He's changed his feed rations to slow down growth which is completely counterintuitive.

I also have a neighbor who can't deliver cattle, they will keep a little better/easier but it's not desirable.

There is a thread in survival and preparedness about this 480477-80-000-pounds-so-free-meat-2.html and I've posted in there as well; the OP seems to have found a temp solution for his but I've posted in there as well.

Basically if someone can butcher now is the time to stock up. Butcher shops are backed up now as well but if you can get in get em while they're hot. Let me know over there or by pm if you want meat.

Is he willing to sell direct to consumers?

 

[nonobaddog]

To all advocating continued lockdown this is more articulate than I am. I have posted before it is largely the affluent afraid of death trying to get over their own panic. In doing so they are lying in the media to the young about theirs risk to convince them to do their bidding, the young know they are lying...

Too great a part of the country’s moral discourse over the past few weeks has resembled nothing so much as chorus of decadent, privileged elites demanding that the entire country abandon life and participate in the most rigorous of measures—cramping lives and destroying livelihoods regardless of real need—to diminish their panic in the face of possible deaths. It is time to raise our chins and be a bit more stoic about things going forward.

https://thefederalist.com/2020/04/23/how-cowardice-and-class-privilege-divide-support-for-coronavirus-lockdowns/

Fortunately fewer and fewer people are supporting actual lockdowns. The flow now seems to be toward opening up the economy in a controlled manner while still giving those with highest risk the opportunity to protect themselves. If the economy is opened slowly enough and differentially appropriate for the various areas and population densities as to not overrun the intensive care units we should be able to withstand the second wave.

Minnesota is still on an upward curve for chinese virus deaths yet we are opening up partially starting tomorrow with manufacturing, industrial and office settings. Using appropriate measure to reduce risk of course.

 

[dusty88]

It depends on the situation. Blanket self-isolation? Maybe, maybe not. For 2 weeks? Maybe, maybe not.

If social distancing and mask-wearing are effective enough to force them upon everyone in every situation, why would they not be sufficient for someone who may or may not have been exposed to the virus, but who remains asymptomatic? If one can avoid high-risk people without self-isolation, what is the need for self-isolation?

No one thinks we are going to completely eliminate the virus from the country in the near future (if ever).

The goal is to reduce transmission.

Social distancing (certainly) and mask-wearing (maybe) reduce transmission while still allowing people to conduct some activity.

If you know you have been exposed, that's when you should not even go to the grocery store. And the overall point here is that this is the type of protocol that should be taking the place of having everyone stay home.

If you say you can avoid "high risk" people you may still be transmitting to an intermediary. High risk people can't avoid healthcare. The nursing home (even if their staff if tested) might suddenly need a plumber, etc

Overall transmission matters, particularly with a virus spread asymptomatically. Testing and contact tracing are a sound strategy.

I'll also go away from my usual fiscal conservatism and say the government needs to invest in offering housing to people who test positive, if they want it because of the inability to self-isolate from their family. New York ER docs reported that many of their patients who were sent home were worried about infecting their families. Hotels are sitting empty and would make good temporary housing for people testing positive that don't need to be in a hospital. Not everyone has a separate bathroom/bedroom for example.
In any case, this might be a far better use of actually fighting the virus and getting the economy back multi-trillion $$ stimulus packages.

 

[dusty88]

This is actually happening in real time right now. With Logansport closed my next door neighbor may be forced to euthanize 200-300 hogs per week if nothing is done within three weeks or so. Of course he'll keep what he can but when there's is no room it's game over. He's changed his feed rations to slow down growth which is completely counterintuitive.

I also have a neighbor who can't deliver cattle, they will keep a little better/easier but it's not desirable.

There is a thread in survival and preparedness about this 480477-80-000-pounds-so-free-meat-2.html and I've posted in there as well; the OP seems to have found a temp solution for his but I've posted in there as well.

Basically if someone can butcher now is the time to stock up. Butcher shops are backed up now as well but if you can get in get em while they're hot. Let me know over there or by pm if you want meat.

This makes sense. The supply chain doesn't shift immediately.

Might this be a good time to invest in an additional freezer? You help the local farmer and might even be one less person contributing to meat shortages in a few weeks?

 

[nonobaddog]

This is actually happening in real time right now. With Logansport closed my next door neighbor may be forced to euthanize 200-300 hogs per week if nothing is done within three weeks or so. Of course he'll keep what he can but when there's is no room it's game over. He's changed his feed rations to slow down growth which is completely counterintuitive.

I also have a neighbor who can't deliver cattle, they will keep a little better/easier but it's not desirable.

There is a thread in survival and preparedness about this 480477-80-000-pounds-so-free-meat-2.html and I've posted in there as well; the OP seems to have found a temp solution for his but I've posted in there as well.

Basically if someone can butcher now is the time to stock up. Butcher shops are backed up now as well but if you can get in get em while they're hot. Let me know over there or by pm if you want meat.

If this all plays out wrong I could see a resurgence in cattle rustling, pig rustling and poaching deer in the future.

Doesn't it seem out of whack that we are talking about meat shortages and wasting cows and pigs in the same breath?

 

[ditcherman]

Is he willing to sell direct to consumers?

Yes, that's the whole point of my post, sorry I wasn't clear on that part at all.
The cattle guy will deliver to a central Indiana processor if you get an appointment with one, or you can pick one up to butcher yourself. The hog guy will want you to come pick one up; he probably doesn't want everyone butchering on his property but we can find a space.

 

[foszoe]

Either post or PM on a hog or beef cost or some contact info. I am all in on a side of beef and a whole hog

 

[ditcherman]

If this all plays out wrong I could see a resurgence in cattle rustling, pig rustling and poaching deer in the future.

Doesn't it seem out of whack that we are talking about meat shortages and wasting cows and pigs in the same breath?

All of this, absolutely true.
The shortages and waste are a product of the design of our economy, but can be mitigated for the prepared/knowledgeable/willing.

 

[ditcherman]

This makes sense. The supply chain doesn't shift immediately.

Might this be a good time to invest in an additional freezer? You help the local farmer and might even be one less person contributing to meat shortages in a few weeks?

Haha, I'm not going to speculate on that. If someone has a freezer, good on them but I just can't do that.

 

[foszoe]

Yes, that's the whole point of my post, sorry I wasn't clear on that part at all.
The cattle guy will deliver to a central Indiana processor if you get an appointment with one, or you can pick one up to butcher yourself. The hog guy will want you to come pick one up; he probably doesn't want everyone butchering on his property but we can find a space.

You were clear on it btw...I gave it a school boy read...OSU style you know who

 

[dudley0]

My assertion that it would be selfish to NOT self-isolate was in response to the testing discussion.

If you've been exposed to someone who is now testing positive (ie 3 days ago you were at work and now one of your coworkers is positive), would you self-isolate for 2 weeks?

I believe another member said people would not do that. I disagree. I think most people would.

At present I do not wear a mask. I have them, from before all this, but I do not see the need to use them right now.

I am avoiding people as well as I can. I still have made trips to the grocery and hardware stores as needed. Significantly cut the trips down. When I do go I get what I need and get out. I sterilize after, in my truck. Same for when I get gas, which isn't as often either.

If I knew I was exposed I would wear a mask and do so properly when I had to be in contact with other people. I could easily stay at the project house I am working on so as not to infect family that I live with. If I started to show symptoms I would hole up until either better or hospital bound.

 

[ditcherman]

Either post or PM on a hog or beef cost or some contact info. I am all in on a side of beef and a whole hog

It should be posted in the thread I linked, I didn't want to sidetrack this one- oh wait never mind!!

The cattle guy wants $1.35 live weight, they are 1200 lbs now, thats delivered to a processor if you get an appointment. By the time you get an appointment they could be 1600 lbs. He will not sacrifice the finish by trying to feed them less, I specifically checked with him on that, concerning the weight gain. Of course you can come and get one. He says he has about 20 at 1200 lbs.
Lets use 1200lbs at 62.5% yield, that's 750 lbs of meat (and some bone/fat) and that ends up being $2.16/lb for hamburger, steaks, roasts. Keep in mind it's also some fat and bone, not sure what yield is without that.

The hog guy wants $.30, (that's 30 cents!) per lb live weight. He says he normally ships 750 every two weeks, I'm guessing they're in the 230 lb range.

ETA: We're talking BACON here!!!

 

[BugI02]

I rest my case...Mr Bennett

PS please post where I said Trump is an idiot so I can apologize. After the reference suggesting the Orthodox church in Greece has a value 3x that of the Roman Catholic church forgive me if I start to hold your posts at a higher level of scrutiny

OK, since you are asking for it to be brought up, lolz


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8790126/Wealth-of-churches-vs-the-wealth-of-people.html
Wealth of churches vs the wealth of people

The Greek Orthodox Church is currently coming under pressure to take less and give more as the country faces a dire financial crisis that could have a global impact.
The Church reportedly owns property worth up to 700 billion euros. That is more than double the country's national debt, a report in France 24 claimed out on Monday - yet it is the Greek state that pays the salaries and pensions of all Orthodox clerics in the country.
Thousands of people have joined a Greek Facebook group entitled "Tax the Church". However the Church has vehemently denied claims it is one of Greece's biggest tax dodgers.

The referenced France24 report

https://www.france24.com/en/20110627-wealthy-orthodox-church-spotlight-amid-greek-crisis
Debt crisis puts pressure on wealthy Orthodox church

The Greek Orthodox Church owns property worth some €700 billion – more than double the country’s national debt. And yet it is the struggling Greek state that pays the salaries and pensions of all the Orthodox clerics in the country.

https://voxeurop.eu/en/content/article/993001-church-fortune-remain-sacrosanct
Church fortune to remain sacrosanct

Newspapers have published a number of stories on the fortunes of the Orthodox Church. According to Kathimerini (centre-right), its assets amounted to 700 million euros in 2008, while Stefanos Manos, a former Minister of Economy, has estimated them at over one billion euros. In the context of these figures, which have not been officially confirmed, the 2.5 million euros paid by the Church does seem small.


At the same time, these estimates only take into account one part of the ecclesiastical assets, which is directly managed by the central services of the Church. They do not include property owned by parishes, some of which are very rich. Nor do they take into account property directly owned by the 80 Greek bishops who enjoy substantial autonomy, or, the assets of 450 monasteries, whether dependent on the Church of Greece or not (like those of Mount Athos, which have a separate status). For completeness, we should also mention the property owned in Greece by the Orthodox patriarchates of Constantinople, Jerusalem and Alexandria.

 

[chipbennett]

I rest my case...Mr Bennett

PS please post where I said Trump is an idiot so I can apologize. After the reference suggesting the Orthodox church in Greece has a value 3x that of the Roman Catholic church forgive me if I start to hold your posts at a higher level of scrutiny

Your point is valid. I don't think you ever said that Trump is an "idiot". (Maybe you did? I don't recall. I try to block out/ignore the ad hominem in both directions.)

There is valid criticism of Trump. You and I may disagree about whether that criticism rises to the level of impacting our decision to vote for or against him.

 

[chipbennett]

Hey....the president said it was cool.

[Citation Needed]

 

[smokingman]

https://nos.nl/artikel/2331784-coronavirus-vastgesteld-bij-nertsenfokkerijen-in-noord-brabant.html

[h=1]Coronavirus diagnosed at mink farms in North Brabant[/h]
I send a few emails about this one. I know in northern Minnesota quite a few of these type of farms exist.

[FONT=&quot]Two mink breeders in North Brabant have diagnosed the coronavirus in several animals, reports Minister Schouten of Agriculture. The animals had gastrointestinal complaints and breathing problems.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The ministry assumes human to animal contamination[/FONT]

 

[chipbennett]

No one thinks we are going to completely eliminate the virus from the country in the near future (if ever).

The goal is to reduce transmission.

Social distancing (certainly) and mask-wearing (maybe) reduce transmission while still allowing people to conduct some activity.

If you know you have been exposed, that's when you should not even go to the grocery store. And the overall point here is that this is the type of protocol that should be taking the place of having everyone stay home.

And then, how is one - or one's family - supposed to eat? That expectation is simply unrealistic. Especially when you don't have empirical evidence that you've been exposed, much less that you have been infected.

If you say you can avoid "high risk" people you may still be transmitting to an intermediary. High risk people can't avoid healthcare. The nursing home (even if their staff if tested) might suddenly need a plumber, etc

The precautions taken by a plumber (or others) who must be physically present around at-risk groups should not dictate the precautions taken by people an arbitrary number of degrees separated from such people. How far down this arbitrary chain-of-separation must we go in the name of mitigating risk?

Overall transmission matters, particularly with a virus spread asymptomatically. Testing and contact tracing are a sound strategy.

Contact tracing may be a sound strategy, but any effective implementation would be a massive, egregious violation of basic human rights. (If the "right to privacy" is found in the penumbras of the constitution, then that right certainly applies here, and contact tracing is therefore inherently unconstitutional.)

I'll also go away from my usual fiscal conservatism and say the government needs to invest in offering housing to people who test positive, if they want it because of the inability to self-isolate from their family. New York ER docs reported that many of their patients who were sent home were worried about infecting their families. Hotels are sitting empty and would make good temporary housing for people testing positive that don't need to be in a hospital. Not everyone has a separate bathroom/bedroom for example.
In any case, this might be a far better use of actually fighting the virus and getting the economy back multi-trillion $$ stimulus packages.

Those hotels aren't empty (or, at least, wouldn't be, if we start housing potentially exposed - much less, confirmed positive - people in them). Who takes care of those people housed in hotels? Who provides their food (since they are prohibited from going to the grocery store)? Are the housekeepers then subjected to continuous quarantine now, too? Are the food delivery people? Again: where does it end?

And (this directly impacts me, so I have a vested interest) what about essential workers who have to be in those hotels? We're going to be forced to be exposed to potentially exposed/confirmed positive people, so they can "isolate" away from their families?

And who pays for it all?

 

[foszoe]

OK, since you are asking for it to be brought up, lolz


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8790126/Wealth-of-churches-vs-the-wealth-of-people.html
Wealth of churches vs the wealth of people


The referenced France24 report

https://www.france24.com/en/20110627-wealthy-orthodox-church-spotlight-amid-greek-crisis
Debt crisis puts pressure on wealthy Orthodox church



https://voxeurop.eu/en/content/article/993001-church-fortune-remain-sacrosanct
Church fortune to remain sacrosanct

define greed if you still wish to discuss and post your response in the Orthodox thread.

I stand by what I said, my answer won't change. No matter what x,y,z scenario you come up with. In fact your underlying theme is I am inconsistent. If you disagree state your case.

Either produce the evidence or admit you are like the Democrats in the Ksvenaugh hearings. Usually I try to find a middle ground excuse for someone but you leave less and less reason to do so.

Bluntly, where have I proved inconsistent?

As to wealth and worship, I've posted on it before here on INGO. Just the possession of money is not greed. That's why I asked you for a definition

 

[nonobaddog]

At present I do not wear a mask. I have them, from before all this, but I do not see the need to use them right now.

I am avoiding people as well as I can. I still have made trips to the grocery and hardware stores as needed. Significantly cut the trips down. When I do go I get what I need and get out. I sterilize after, in my truck. Same for when I get gas, which isn't as often either.

If I knew I was exposed I would wear a mask and do so properly when I had to be in contact with other people. I could easily stay at the project house I am working on so as not to infect family that I live with. If I started to show symptoms I would hole up until either better or hospital bound.

The chinese virions are too small to see so of course you cannot see the need.

You can't know of an exposure all the time. Sure if somebody coughs right in your face that is a hint but many exposures are unknown. So after an unknown exposure you could be spreading it around without knowing it causing more unknown exposures. That is how it has been spreading all this time. Basically you just described the problem rather than a successful plan.

By the time you start to show symptoms it would be to late to protect your family from the exposure you gave them in the several days before you had symptoms. Again, that is the problem with this crap.

 

[qwerty]

https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/04/24/study-challenges-reports-of-low-fatality-rate-for-covid-19/

“If you want to know what are the chances of dying from COVID-19 if you get infected, we observed that a very simple answer seems to fit a lot of data: It is the same as the chance of you dying over the next 12 months from normal causes,” said Seljak.