Coronovirus III

[foszoe]

Forum life/internet life vs. real life. Trump supporters here are more extreme.

Bunker mentality. Trump supporters here believe criticism of Trump is equivalent to being a democrat

Well, c’mon. There’s some **** going on over on the other side that contributes just as much. Trump or his supporters digging in isn’t exactly why it’s being politicized. It’s not like, oh, but if only the poopyhead Trump supporters would see him as evil as I do the world would be set straight. The world would be set straighter if people cared more about extending their viewpoints to see the important objects from more angles than just one and it’s not only them not doing that.

My own take of it is that Trump read some **** that he didn’t fully understand, and the tried to re-articulate in his own words what he thought he understood. It only demonstrated his lack of understanding. Most people have a filter. “Hmm, I better not try to talk about that because I don’t understand it well enough not to sound like an idiot.” Trump doesn’t have that filter. Is it something worth making a big deal about? Does it really matter? Not really. He’s not, apparently, making any decisions based on that incomplete understanding. And it appears, that regardless of what he says on Twitter or in press conferences, that his decisions are based on his advisors.

Is it worth some deserved ridicule? Sure. Should it consume our souls? No. Have some yuks, poke some fun, and call it a day. More than that IS fueling the divide.

 

[Snapdragon]

Forum life/internet life vs. real life. Trump supporters here are more extreme.

Bunker mentality. Trump supporters here believe criticism of Trump is equivalent to being a democrat

Bingo.

 

[foszoe]

A question that is interesting me is we have a right to life movement, we have a right to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. we have movements against death panels simply based on economics. Does the order matter? I think all 3 are at odds here. Ones right to life does not Trump another's pursuit of happiness or another's liberty except when it does. That's what everyone is really trying to figure out, I believe.

This is an excellent point, and one I don't think is being discussed enough. It's the old example of "your rights end at the tip of my nose."

As freedom minded people, I think most of us here tend to hold the belief that if an individual partakes in risky or potentially harmful behavior then that's the choice of the individual ... until it starts to negatively impact us.

I don't think anyone would accept some guy showing up at a public park and randomly firing gun shots into the air, even if none of the bullets hit anyone. We wouldn't say, "oh he's not hurting anyone, so leave him alone." We see and understand that the potential risk of harm to others is much too great, even if the risk to us personally is statistically low.

COVID-19 is similar. Refusing to quarantine or going out while being asymptomatic has the potential risk to kill someone else.

That said, we all accept some amount of risk day-to-day too. We understand someone's bad driving has the potential to kill us, and we accept that. So I'm not arguing that a small potential risk should lead to complete shut down, but it does boil down to a cost benefit analysis. I do think we (INGO) is having that conversation, but I don't see it as much in the world at large.

What I don't really hear anyone discussing is the question of, where do a sick person's rights end and a healthy person's rights begin?

I don't have a good answer, but it's an excellent philosophical discussion.

 

[foszoe]

Its my main beef. That and sometimes choose to say nothing.

I dunno.

I can see how Trump would have seen himself as trying to troll the reporters with those comments. I've never liked Trump's delivery, and I've been open about that. If this is such an example of Trump's delivery style, then it's an example of what I don't like.

That said, I do get a non-trivial degree of schadenfreude watching the media and other NeverTrumpers lose their crap over Trump's antics.

 

[foszoe]

The judiciary, including SCOTUS, disagrees.

You are mostly right. However if the Senate flips, it becomes moot. It's the main reason I voted for Trump in 2016. Total control. I also think Trump was a contributing factor that cost the house. It's also less important in 2020.

 

[Phase2]

Forum life/internet life vs. real life. Trump supporters here are more extreme.

Bunker mentality. Trump supporters here believe criticism of Trump is equivalent to being a democrat

You mean unending, lying, out-of-context, made up out of whole cloth, daily, from an overwhelming number of coordinating media outlets criticism? Yeah, I can't understand why bunker mentality wouldn't be 100% appropriate.

 

[Phase2]

Don't trust China. China is a**hole.

Faulty batch of face masks prompts the isolation of more than a thousand Spanish healthcare staff

Faulty tests, faulty masks. China sure is making a lot of money and sabotaging a lot of people due to this disease that they gifted to the world.

 

[foszoe]

Interesting.

So if you went to a doctor and they prescribed a medication for you, you would take it without any concern for side effects unless you personally experienced them?

And your point is, what, exactly? You can find similar lists for every drug product ever approved for use. The existence of such a list is not evidence of a drug being potentially hazardous. If a drug product were actually potentially hazardous, it would not get approved. Those side effect disclosures basically include every adverse response reported by any clinical trial participant, whether that adverse response was due to the drug or not.

There are 70 years of real-world, patient response data that demonstrate, conclusively, that hydroxychloroquine is a safe drug product.

 

[dusty88]

Since you are really good at 20/20 hindsight lets just imagine that Trump gave a speech in late November that he saw a YouTube video of some sick people in Wuhan China and he was preparing for the worst and was spending $20 billion to prepare for this. What would impeachment fever democrats and their media accomplices have said?

I didn't say November. I said January. This was all over the medical news in January and Trump has an intelligence team beyond that.

Nowhere did I say he should have known exactly how it would go. We still don't know how it will go. I said we should have began traveler screening and started to prepare testing.

PPE is also a no-brainer as that's something that's been pointed out for 20 years including by Bush

 

[foszoe]

Yes. It can be shared somewhat, but

I know in my job, if I take over for someone else's work, I also assume all the responsibility. Especially as time goes by. After 3 years??? Yeah I would be responsible.

Obama did have a stockpile of masks and other medical supplies, he inherited from GWB, he just used them up in H1N1 and failed to replace them. What I ponder is how much blame does a Trump administration get? If it was HRC would we blame her for Obama not restocking what he used? If administration A stops something does administration B get blame for not reconstituting it?

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/george-bush-2005-wait-pandemic-late-prepare/story?id=69979013

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2005/11/bush-asks-71-billion-prepare-flu-pandemic

 

[foszoe]

Are the reports of the pandemic exercise carried out last year and not acted upon in anyway accurate? Were there any recommendations this century made in regard to pandemic readiness that were not followed? There should be a justification for inaction if so.

20/20 hindsight makes for a great high horse.

Where can I find similar criticism of the Obama administration's handling of H1N1?

 

[foszoe]

Thanks for agreeing with me! That's totally awesome!

You mean unending, lying, out-of-context, made up out of whole cloth, daily, from an overwhelming number of coordinating media outlets criticism? Yeah, I can't understand why bunker mentality wouldn't be 100% appropriate.

 

[Phase2]

Are the reports of the pandemic exercise carried out last year and not acted upon in anyway accurate? Were there any recommendations this century made in regard to pandemic readiness that were not followed? There should be a justification for inaction if so.

The main one I've heard of is when the previous administration did not restock the PPE supplies after they were depleted in 2009.

 

[Alpo]

And your point is, what, exactly? You can find similar lists for every drug product ever approved for use. The existence of such a list is not evidence of a drug being potentially hazardous. If a drug product were actually potentially hazardous, it would not get approved. Those side effect disclosures basically include every adverse response reported by any clinical trial participant, whether that adverse response was due to the drug or not.

There are 70 years of real-world, patient response data that demonstrate, conclusively, that hydroxychloroquine is a safe drug product.

We are ships passing in the channel. I said "potential". You disagreed. "Potential" is the capacity to develop or become. I gave you the side effects from their own site and you say "so what?"

If a drug has been around as long as Plaquenil and the disclosures are still there, then they represent "something" rather than "nothing"l

I don't see the need to further debate this. You are in a mood today.

 

[Dirtebiker]

On all those points, I agree with you. But it's even more basic than that. His comments were a) clearly directed at the doctors on the podium, and b) clearly in the context of things that they - the doctors - might consider investigating. The assertion that his comments can reasonably be interpreted as a directive, suggestion, or implication for any person to inject himself with isopropyl alcohol is utterly absurd.

This^^^!
I first heard about this on NBC. When I saw the video I wondered if there was another? Yes, he asked a goofy question. But in no way did he DIRECT or SUGGEST that people inject themselves with Lysol!

 

[foszoe]

Ok. That means the current administration ALSO failed to do so.

If the line crew restoring power to your house reaches the end of their shift prior to you getting electricity, the next crew is free to move on to other priorities leaving you in the dark because it was the previous shift that left you in the dark.

The main one I've heard of is when the previous administration did not restock the PPE supplies after they were depleted in 2009.

 

[Trigger Time]

You are mostly right. However if the Senate flips, it becomes moot. It's the main reason I voted for Trump in 2016. Total control. I also think Trump was a contributing factor that cost the house. It's also less important in 2020.

Trump was a contributing factor that didnt cost the Republicans more seats in the house.
He saved seats
What cost the Republicans seats and maybe control was the rino's jumping ship.
This November plan for a total Republican take over. Every Republican needs to get out and vote a straight republican ticket to force the traitor Democrats out.

 

[chipbennett]

Interesting.

So if you went to a doctor and they prescribed a medication for you, you would take it without any concern for side effects unless you personally experienced them?

In general? Yes. So does everyone. Do you read the disclosures with every one of your OTC and prescription medicines?

If there are specific reasons to need to consider specific interactions, indications, or side effects, that's something that your doctor should be discussing with you.

 

[chipbennett]

We are ships passing in the channel. I said "potential". You disagreed. "Potential" is the capacity to develop or become. I gave you the side effects from their own site and you say "so what?"

If a drug has been around as long as Plaquenil and the disclosures are still there, then they represent "something" rather than "nothing"l

I don't see the need to further debate this. You are in a mood today.

You have the "potential" to get hit in the head by falling matter from space (assuming you can actually go outside without getting brow-beaten by a nosy neighbor). The point is that said "potential" is, for all practical purposes, so trivial as to be meaningless.

Drug disclosures don't change, even if that drug has been around for 70 years, because they are based on the original NDA/ANDA filing that led to its approval. Unless a new filing is submitted with new data, the disclosures don't change. Further: if there are actual field data that show that occurrence of disclosed (or undisclosed) side effects is sufficiently high, the drug gets recalled.

Hydroxychloroquine has been on the market for 65 years. The only thing I've found evidence of is a (very rare) issue with the eye, caused by long-term exposure (i.e. not acute exposure such as would occur when used to treat a viral infection).

 

[Hatin Since 87]

In general? Yes. So does everyone. Do you read the disclosures with every one of your OTC and prescription medicines?

If there are specific reasons to need to consider specific interactions, indications, or side effects, that's something that your doctor should be discussing with you.

I figure if my doctor prescribes me something it’s because I need it. I’ll take what the professional tells me I need, and if I experience anything negative I’ll let him know and he will decide what’s best for me. This is why you choose a doctor you trust.