Coronovirus III

[Ingomike]

So tell me what the US did to prepare for this pandemic in January? By this time the virus was known to the world. Even in February we still had denial at the highest level.

The US testing (percapita) just caught up this week with other countries.

What would you have done in January? What would the people have tolerated? For sure the denial was high in February, Our leaders were playing gotcha impeachment and the few things that were done were called "racist", like the China traverl ban...

 

[Ingomike]

I disagree completely. Germs and infections are a constant on this planet. Every human contact spreads germs of some kind or another. Life and freedom are inherently fraught with risk, and freedom trumps safety.

It is the responsibility of the at-risk person to take appropriate precautions for their risk; FULLSTOP.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to chipbennett again.

 

[chipbennett]

Rather picky. Trump says something extraordinarily dumb and you raise the stakes to chemical formulation and grammar, both topics on which Trump couldn't carry Foz's water.

Yes there is no hydrochloroquinine. Hydroxychloroquinine and chloroquinine differ only in one containing an hydroxide group and one containing a methyl group.

But, either chemical compound, or as Foz suggests, taking chloroquinine with water, efficacy vis a vis SARS-CoV-2 is unproven and potentially hazardous.

I'll concede that clinical study results of efficacy with respect to SARS-CoV-2 are not yet in. But the claim that hydroxychloroquine is "potentially hazardous" is complete bull****. Plaquenil was approved in 1955, and that approval included demonstration of not just efficacy against malaria, but also patient safety. There is no credible evidence to the contrary.

 

[CountryBoy1981]

What would you have done in January? What would the people have tolerated? For sure the denial was high in February, Our leaders were playing gotcha impeachment and the few things that were done were called "racist", like the China traverl ban...

Yea the travel ban was racist then and not needed as well as NY politiciana telling everyone we were safe, ride the subway.

 

[Doug]

Looking back through the retrospectoscope, it's easy to see what might have produced a better result.
It is extremely partisan to blame Trump for not knowing in December what everyone knows in April.
It's like asking why President Obama didn't have a stockpile of 6,000,000,000 N-95 masks.

 

[terrehautian]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulmonary_surfactant_(medication)

So there is a medicine for premature babies that RT's "inject" down a tube down the throat into the lungs, that is rapid working medicine to help them breath. I'm not saying Trump knew this but maybe he did. A family member reposted something on facebook that made me look this up.

 

[jamil]

Yes I agree the divide has been building. And I think the reason Trump was elected, and the fact his supporters feel defensive comes from years of many liberals not understanding the other side particularly the rural areas.

His supporters’ defense comes from the same place as his detractors’ criticisms, at least to the extent that they’re partisan. But you’re right. The left does not understand the people they’re fighting.

 

[chipbennett]

I went to pick up my meat order today from Archers. I don't have a mask. Again, the CDC told me we didn't need a mask....and then they changed their mind and said we needed masks. So, which is it, Doc? I'll tell you what I think: people who are untrained in the "art" of wearing a mask are walking placebo exhibits. I still don't have a mask and won't wear one. If I'm sneezing or coughing, I'll stay home.

But, to ensure that the meat was properly sterilized, I selected on 4 pound sirloin tri-tip roast and inserted it in my outdoor dry-heat autoclave after sanitizing said roast with liberal amounts of garlic, olive oil, red wine vinegar and pepper.

It was delicious.

I see what you did there, and I like it. But an autoclave is, by definition, a saturated steam sterilizer. Dry heat sterilization is typically accomplished in a depyrogenation oven or tunnel. Saturated steam sterilization is accomplished at a temperature of about 122C (250F). Dry heat sterilization is accomplished in the range of 160 - 190C (320 - 375F). Depyrogenation is accomplished at around 300C (570F) and higher.

Depyrogenation temperatures are great not only for destroying pyrogens, but also for putting a delicious crust on a steak, thanks to the miracle of Maillard reactions. And marinated tri-tip is an excellent choice.

 

[Ingomike]

This is an excellent point, and one I don't think is being discussed enough. It's the old example of "your rights end at the tip of my nose."

As freedom minded people, I think most of us here tend to hold the belief that if an individual partakes in risky or potentially harmful behavior then that's the choice of the individual ... until it starts to negatively impact us.

I don't think anyone would accept some guy showing up at a public park and randomly firing gun shots into the air, even if none of the bullets hit anyone. We wouldn't say, "oh he's not hurting anyone, so leave him alone." We see and understand that the potential risk of harm to others is much too great, even if the risk to us personally is statistically low.

COVID-19 is similar. Refusing to quarantine or going out while being asymptomatic has the potential risk to kill someone else.

That said, we all accept some amount of risk day-to-day too. We understand someone's bad driving has the potential to kill us, and we accept that. So I'm not arguing that a small potential risk should lead to complete shut down, but it does boil down to a cost benefit analysis. I do think we (INGO) is having that conversation, but I don't see it as much in the world at large.

What I don't really hear anyone discussing is the question of, where do a sick person's rights end and a healthy person's rights begin?

I don't have a good answer, but it's an excellent philosophical discussion.

This discussion is completely ridiculous, you are talking about the right to breathe and exist in space and comparing it to shooting a gun in a park and driving. It is one thing to force quarantine and penalty on those known to carry diseases but deprivation of liberty because of potential is the mark of totalitarianism.

Your freedom isn't to lock others up because their existence breathing may negatively affect you, it is the freedom to protect you and yours as you see fit. Which is exactly what I have been doing the entire time.

 

[Alpo]

I'll concede that clinical study results of efficacy with respect to SARS-CoV-2 are not yet in. But the claim that hydroxychloroquine is "potentially hazardous" is complete bull****. Plaquenil was approved in 1955, and that approval included demonstration of not just efficacy against malaria, but also patient safety. There is no credible evidence to the contrary.

Side effects, a partial list. From the Plaquenil website:

Taking Plaquenil long-term or at high doses may cause irreversible damage to the retina of your eye. Stop taking Plaquenil and call your doctor at once if you have trouble focusing, if you see light streaks or flashes in your vision, or if you notice any swelling or color changes in your eyes.

Cardiomyopathy (can result in fatal cardiac failure), biventricular hypertrophy
pruritus
Pigmentary changes in skin and mucous membranes, bleaching of hair, alopecia
Bone-marrow depression, anemia, aplastic anemia, agranulocytosis, leucopenia, thrombocytopenia
Abnormal liver function
Anorexia
Seizure, vertigo, nerve deafness, ataxia
Psychosis, suicidal behavior

 

[smokingman]

Vehicles line up at a drive-thru emergency food distribution center set up at SDCCU Stadium in San Diego by the food bank Feeding San Diego on Saturday, April 5, 2020.

[h=1]Over 40% Of San Diego Residents Turned To Food Banks Last Month[/h]https://www.zerohedge.com/health/over-40-san-diego-residents-turned-food-banks-last-month

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...emand-warn-run-millions-Americans-hungry.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/covid-19-crisis-heaps-pressure-nation-s-food-banks-n1178731

• In Pittsburgh, motorists lined up for more than a mile outside a sports arena in downtown to receive food
• A Los Angeles food bank gave produce to thousands of people waiting hours outside the Forum in Inglewood
• In San Diego, volunteers braved the rain to distribute food and toilet paper in a drive thru center
• Meanwhile, food banks across the country say they have only a few weeks left before all of their food runs out
• Feeding America, the largest hunger-relief nonprofit in the US, estimates that 37 million are food insecure

https://q13fox.com/2020/04/23/new-families-flood-salvation-army-food-banks-as-pandemic-goes-on/

[h=1]2,000+ turn out for largest ever Utah Food Bank mobile distribution https://www.fox13now.com/news/local...rgest-ever-utah-food-bank-mobile-distribution[/h]
https://www.fox29.com/news/wawa-and-sheetz-team-up-to-donate-to-emergency-food-banks

 

[chipbennett]

Thinking a simple mask will prevent anything airborne is like thinking you can drain the ocean with a tea strainer. It gives you the feeling you are 'doing something' but in the end has no effect on the outcome.

A mask in the absence of sterile technique is just something for others to look at...

If you're going to bring up aseptic technique, I should remind that particle size matters. SARS-CoV-2 particle size is 0.07 - 0.09 microns. The highest cleanroom classifications (ISO Class 10, EU Grade A) only control particles down to 0.5 microns, and allow for 3,250 such particles per cubic meter. Surgical masks block particles down to 5 microns. Human exhalation droplets from coughing range from 0.6 - 16 microns, with an average of around 8 microns.

The point of using a surgical mask is not to create an aseptic environment. It is more or less a gross filter to prevent the spread of droplets due to exhalation, and coughing in particular. The purpose of a surgical mask, ultimately, isn't to prevent the wearer from catching something, but rather to prevent the wearer from spreading something. And in that, it is reasonably effective.

 

[dusty88]

I disagree completely. Germs and infections are a constant on this planet. Every human contact spreads germs of some kind or another. Life and freedom are inherently fraught with risk, and freedom trumps safety.

It is the responsibility of the at-risk person to take appropriate precautions for their risk; FULLSTOP.

You can't just "full stop" by ignoring facts. An emerging epidemic of a novel virus is a very specific situation.

 

[chipbennett]

Side effects, a partial list. From the Plaquenil website:

And your point is, what, exactly? You can find similar lists for every drug product ever approved for use. The existence of such a list is not evidence of a drug being potentially hazardous. If a drug product were actually potentially hazardous, it would not get approved. Those side effect disclosures basically include every adverse response reported by any clinical trial participant, whether that adverse response was due to the drug or not.

There are 70 years of real-world, patient response data that demonstrate, conclusively, that hydroxychloroquine is a safe drug product.

 

[Ingomike]

Looking back through the retrospectoscope, it's easy to see what might have produced a better result.
It is extremely partisan to blame Trump for not knowing in December what everyone knows in April.
It's like asking why President Obama didn't have a stockpile of 6,000,000,000 N-95 masks.

Obama did have a stockpile of masks and other medical supplies, he inherited from GWB, he just used them up in H1N1 and failed to replace them. What I ponder is how much blame does a Trump administration get? If it was HRC would we blame her for Obama not restocking what he used? If administration A stops something does administration B get blame for not reconstituting it?

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/george-bush-2005-wait-pandemic-late-prepare/story?id=69979013

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2005/11/bush-asks-71-billion-prepare-flu-pandemic

 

[dusty88]

What would you have done in January? What would the people have tolerated? For sure the denial was high in February, Our leaders were playing gotcha impeachment and the few things that were done were called "racist", like the China traverl ban...

in January.. pandemic response should have been reviewed including preparing for testing and looking at supplies.

And travelers from certain areas should have been getting tested.

 

[chipbennett]

You can't just "full stop" by ignoring facts. An emerging epidemic of a novel virus is a very specific situation.

What facts have I ignored? The fact that rural small businesses were forced to close while the NYC subway remained operational for weeks? The fact that actual data are showing that project models were mostly an exercise in fear-mongering, in terms of infection rate and mortality? The fact that local and state governments and even the judiciary have used the excuse of this pandemic as an opportunity to implement policies that grossly violate basic, constitutionally protected, civil rights?

Those facts?

 

[chipbennett]

in January.. pandemic response should have been reviewed including preparing for testing and looking at supplies.

And travelers from certain areas should have been getting tested.

20/20 hindsight makes for a great high horse.

Where can I find similar criticism of the Obama administration's handling of H1N1?

 

[sparky32]

20/20 hindsight makes for a great high horse.

Where can I find similar criticism of the Obama administration's handling of H1N1?

You cant find any haha

 

[Ingomike]

in January.. pandemic response should have been reviewed including preparing for testing and looking at supplies.

And travelers from certain areas should have been getting tested.

Since you are really good at 20/20 hindsight lets just imagine that Trump gave a speech in late November that he saw a YouTube video of some sick people in Wuhan China and he was preparing for the worst and was spending $20 billion to prepare for this. What would impeachment fever democrats and their media accomplices have said?