Close contact shooting with an XD

[RD3]

Here is a great picture illustration of the point, taken from this thread: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...dfi_close_contact_shooting_pics_thoughts.html

Can

Can't

looks like he's about to get his thumb broken off in the first pic

 

[esrice]

looks like he's about to get his thumb broken off in the first pic

Nope, he won't.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...e_contact_shooting_with_an_xd.html#post727429

 

[TFin04]

A student of one of the CCS classes posted his AAR on XDtalk, and when this technique was mentioned, MULTIPLE people GUARANTEED he would blow his thumb off, including some of the staff members (and owner) of the board (also the owner of Crossbreed holsters). They swore up and down this was impossible.

So the student made a video of it, hosted it on youtube, and posted it to that thread. The owner of the site deleted the video, closed the thread, and threatened to ban anybody who brought up the topic again.

Here is that video:

YouTube - Glock Severs Thumb

 

[Suprtek]

I may start an entirely different argument here but the XD grip safety has always made me feel more comfortable with the idea of carrying with one in the pipe. I understand that many guns may be perfectly safe doing the same thing without the grip safety. This could also indicate a lack of experience and/or training on my part. I won't argue that at all. In the meantime, there is something to be said about operating within one's comfort zone when possible. In the close contact scenario described, the grip safety/slide battery issue would be irrelevant without a round in the pipe.

 

[SirRealism]

A few questions re: the scenario (I'm assuming that you've already decided that deadly force is warranted and intended):

If you're in this situation, why do you push the gun into the BG with enough force to put it out of battery? Is this just the natural effect of the situation, or is this something you intentionally train to do?

If it's the latter, what's the advantage?

Is it possible that XD owners, instead of training to use their thumb to keep the slide forward, train not to push the gun hard enough to take it out of battery?

 

[esrice]

If you're in this situation, why do you push the gun into the BG with enough force to put it out of battery? Is this just the natural effect of the situation, or is this something you intentionally train to do?

Natural effect of the situation. When fights are up close and personal, its very possible for the slide to make contact with the aggressor, thereby taking it out of battery and not allowing you to fire. Retarding the slide is simply a technique to ensure that this does not happen.

If at all possible, keeping the slide in battery and allowing it's free movement is preferable.

There are many techniques to close contact fighting, and this is simply one of them. Another would be-- cut the guy off of you with a knife.

 

[cce1302]

Still seems pretty far fetched to me, but I guess it goes to show that if one doesn't like a feature enough, he can come up with a scenario where one would be at a disadvantage when using a gun with that feature.
This reminds me of that one guy (5shot I think was his name) that came here a few months back and said that the 1911 had some kind of dangerous design flaw because it would jam if you laid your trigger finger above the trigger and used your middle finger to pull the trigger. Couldn't figure that guy out either.
FWIW, I tried this thumb thing with my Ruger P95 and it doesn't work with that either, because my thumb got in the way of the hammer. Are all double action semi-autos this way?

 

[esrice]

Still seems pretty far fetched to me, but I guess it goes to show that if one doesn't like a feature enough, he can come up with a scenario where one would be at a disadvantage when using a gun with that feature.

I don't believe there is ONE gun that works the absolute best for ALL scenarios. During the MDFI class (which is why this topic came up), they simply demonstrated that XDs could not do that one particular technique. They also pointed out that it couldn't be done (single handedly, anyway) with 1911s and other hammer-fired handguns.

This reminds me of that one guy (5shot I think was his name) that came here a few months back and said that the 1911 had some kind of dangerous design flaw because it would jam if you laid your trigger finger above the trigger and used your middle finger to pull the trigger. Couldn't figure that guy out either.

If I remember correctly, he was speaking about a very specific type of point shooting.

FWIW, I tried this thumb thing with my Ruger P95 and it doesn't work with that either, because my thumb got in the way of the hammer. Are all double action semi-autos this way?

The one-handed technique only works with striker-fired type handguns like Glocks, M&Ps, or Kahrs. Hammer-fired won't work, as your thumb would either interfere with the hammer, or it would put your thumb too far back to hold the slide forward. You could still use a two-handed technique, however (same goes for the XD).

 

[Fenway]

Could you just wrap some tape around the XD grip safety

 

[esrice]

Could you just wrap some tape around the XD grip safety

I've heard of gamers wrapping them up, or pinning it down (on 1911s) during matches. ( https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...e_contact_shooting_with_an_xd.html#post726916 ) Installing a Hogue Grip Sleeve could also do the trick. If it was a CC piece, I'd question the practice of bypassing a factory safety feature, for fear of the possible legal ramifications.

 

[Steve MI]

Wow are you all way off base.

I love how a few untrained shooters take snippets and try to make up things to suit there argument......

to start no one is shoving he gun into the bad guy on purpose.

2 yes it has happened or else we wouldnt be practicing this

3 if you have no clue on close range combatives and what happens get trained then get back to us.

you in an active assualt you dont always have 2 hands on the gun or are able too
IE defending striking etc...

several systems suffer this flaw except 2-3 that is why the entire class goes over this with each system present

and yes it is very much a real thing you may be shooting a threat from the rear or stabbing/slicing them......I lived in a very violet world for many years in my job. i saw the practices of the animals i delt with and have been in world with them and been attacked by them as well. have you?

dont confuse your 180 range up down 2 rounds com bs as saving your life. it isnt

 

[Steve MI]

Still seems pretty far fetched to me, but I guess it goes to show that if one doesn't like a feature enough, he can come up with a scenario where one would be at a disadvantage when using a gun with that feature.

No your thought is far fetched,

not that i dont like the feature at all. what it is is exposing the possible weakness in each weapons platform see there is more to training people than shoot com there is more to a good trainers than that as well. it is to create thought and possiblities while also showing the weakness and cures and actions to fix said things

the xd would not be my first choice for a a few reasons and yes i have owned them and trained with them.

 

[Steve MI]

It is most likely that rear bear-hug type of attack will be the initial one while your gun is still holstered. It will be difficult to bring the pistol into action (unless you carry cross-draw) if the arms are pinned. Defense, in this case, will likely have to be unarmed or the knife you keep positioned for just such an occurrence.

there are ways to do this we showed in the actual ccs class without using a crossdraw........

 

[Steve MI]

If I can not see my target I am not going to shoot. Could you imagine what that would look like in court. Oh the guy grabbed me from behind, while I had my gun out. So without looking I just shot at him. That's the idea I was trying to relay. As for the Xd, that's why the guide rod protrudes from the frame. That way when pressure is applied it will help keep the slide from being pushed out of battery. But no, when I shoot people from behind I'm in my stealth ninja mode. I mean it comes down to what gun fits you.

No matter if it's a Glock, Xd, m&p, CZ, Sig, etc. I know some people always want to blame Glock. However, some think Glock is the end all pistol. Personally I like different brands, and styles of guns. As long as it what I look for in a pistol. It comes down to what is comfortable, reliable, and easiest for you to train with, and carry. Situational awareness is the most key aspect of survival in any situation. Honestly if my gun is pressed into someones body. Hopefully that distracts them, and they go for the pistol. I mean if someone presses a gun against me, my first thought is disable his shooting hand or go for the gun directly. If he does go for the gun, I'm going to go for a nut or throat shot.

So lets all give each other a big ingunowners hug, and sit around the camp fire with some marshmallows.

wow you are so off base i dont know were to begin
the guide rod doesnt save you....or keep the gun from being knocked out of battery. and yes i can tell you how it goes in court. can you?

yes while being choked out or atttacked then during the fight the person gets behind you and grabs you etc... soon... but that never happens ever. how many hours of relivant training do you have from crediited trainers..

 

[theweakerbrother]

I don't know about all the other alleged XD & XDM jams/failures/melting but if you're worried about the grip safety, I'm selling specialized XD & XDM grip safety bypass devices. They are 10.99 + 5 dollars for shipping. Below is a picture. These are patented, trade marked and otherwise licensed by me so don't go selling your own!

 

[varasha]

Wow are you all way off base.

All hail Steve...he has been there, and done that...and knows everything...... And as a side note, depending on what the XD is making contact with the guide rod can stop the slide from going back at all. On a flabby fat guy you are outta luck so don't push him with it, if your pressing it against something that is fairly ridged (toned abs, kevlar vest, think jacket) the guide rod will keep it forward enough to make it go boom.

The XD like any other firearm is a tool, and from my experience (which doesn't mean i have alot..:P) the person using the tool has a much greater impact of the outcome then the tool itself.

I like the safety on the back of the XD. If used right and in the proper situation it can save your life....How you might ask...well if someone is trying to take your gun from you, simple turning it in your hand and pulling the trigger wouldn't be enough to shot you, they would have to make sure the safety was depressed. So i have two different parts of the gun i can chose to protect in a struggle with my gun.

 

[ihateiraq]

all hail Steve MI. we are worms beneath your feet.

 

[Steve MI]

All hail Steve...he has been there, and done that...and knows everything...... And as a side note, depending on what the XD is making contact with the guide rod can stop the slide from going back at all. On a flabby fat guy you are outta luck so don't push him with it, if your pressing it against something that is fairly ridged (toned abs, kevlar vest, think jacket) the guide rod will keep it forward enough to make it go boom.

The XD like any other firearm is a tool, and from my experience (which doesn't mean i have alot..:P) the person using the tool has a much greater impact of the outcome then the tool itself.

I like the safety on the back of the XD. If used right and in the proper situation it can save your life....How you might ask...well if someone is trying to take your gun from you, simple turning it in your hand and pulling the trigger wouldn't be enough to shot you, they would have to make sure the safety was depressed. So i have two different parts of the gun i can chose to protect in a struggle with my gun.

Never said that i know everything but im a very serious student
have you tried this what you mention in training? with disarms

you assume the gun will be in that postion that the guide rod will save you
interesting.

 

[Steve MI]

all hail Steve MI. we are worms beneath your feet.

well thank you for your service.

as you well know then MIL/LEO/Civ all have different needs and TTP's. I have that same patch given to me by some guys from a BW team . it looks well with my others from teams depts etc... we have trained up

I mean all i have done is read the internet and shot IDPA. what do i know.

 

[alxjmrk]

ban hammer
ban hammer
ban hammer
ban hammer
ban hammer
ban hammer
ban hammer
AHHHHHHHH

was i too harsh?
<<< he sounds smarter when i do this


btw, i will take 7 of those devices brother. Just in case i lose some. do i get the fingers with it? because those are worth the 10.99 alone.