Close contact shooting with an XD

[mettle]

Ok you got me on that one, but I still don't see the point in pushing against someone hard enough to push my slide out of battery just so I can use my thumb to put it back into battery and cause a FTE in order to show how 1911s are worthless handguns.

Reminds me of the argument against the Beretta 92 that starts out with "jackie chan took one of those apart in Rush Hour..."

Dude:

 

[Agent 007]

I feel the same way about using 47 different internal safeties to do the job that a single external safety does.

47 internal safeties?? Somebody get kingnereli a paper bag, he's hyperventilating.

 

[cce1302]

The technique is not taught as something preferable, but rather a method to use if you were in a situation that required it. If you can shoot 'normally', then do it. But there are times when you may find yourself with a 200lb. gorilla on top of you, and trying to shoot him pushes your slide out of battery. This is a technique that can overcome that and still allow you to make 1 shot.

Remember, we train for the worse scenarios, not the best.

No, we don't train for the worst scenarios. we train for bad scenarios that are likely to happen. If we trained for the worst scenarios, we'd forget about handguns, except as backup, and train exclusively with shotguns and battle rifles against communist invasions, mob scenarios, and riots.

Does Steve or whoever also go over the scenario where after you jam your pistol in the BG's ribs, and it goes out of battery, he grabs it, and keeps it out of battery, and you go for your BUG, and he grabs that one too, and head butts you? because, really, I think that'd be a worse scenario than the first one you gave, and I don't want you to miss one.

Dude:
1. I'm just a hick that learned some things that shocked me about certain things.

ok. well step back and take a critical look at the information you were given. I don't care who taught you, whether it was Steve, or Shay, or that piazza guy or Col Cooper.

2. I didn't 'get' you on anything, I'm not winning a fight/argument; I'm just relaying some interesting info I learned.

well I was got, because I assumed that pistol recoil would cause pain to my thumb, but having never tried it, I'll take the word of those who have.

3. The WHOLE point of this conversation was simply talking about how a pistol grip disables the pistol IF, ..... IF.... IF you happen to be rushed by an aggressor and you pull your pistol to implement, it impacts the assailant, the pistol is pushed out of battery----and if you have an XD or 1911--- you cannot fire the weapon if you try and force the slide back into place with your thumb on your firing hand.

wouldn't it be just as easy to pull your weapon away from the aggressor and allow it to go back into battery? And if there isn't room between my body and his body, then can't I just push the back of my slide against my body to put it back into battery?

4. Who said you HAD to push your pistol against someone?

Isn't that the point of this scenario? it's the only way that it will work.

5. No one is trying to tarnish your 1911s reputation.

I don't have a 1911

6. Firearms are just metal parts machined for a purpose, tools, so settle down.

Ok, now you're just adding numbers and words to lengthen your post

7. There is no personal attack.

still adding numbers and words

8. I love Jackie Chan movies--- they are fun!

sure, who doesn't?

Breath.......

Oh, now you tell me. <-that was the best blue guy I could find.

 

[esrice]

No, we don't train for the worst scenarios.

We could go back and forth all day coming up with progressively worse scenarios. My point was that shooting someone from across a room is the "norm" (in the training world), while shooting someone at contact distance is not. Therefore, don't discount the technique simply because it is less likely to be used.

Also note, I said "worse scenarios", not "worst".

 

[U.S. Patriot]

It can also be applied to a forward aggressor, but I think I get your humor.

When do you shoot the bad guy behind you, when you are in Batman mode?

If I can not see my target I am not going to shoot. Could you imagine what that would look like in court. Oh the guy grabbed me from behind, while I had my gun out. So without looking I just shot at him. That's the idea I was trying to relay. As for the Xd, that's why the guide rod protrudes from the frame. That way when pressure is applied it will help keep the slide from being pushed out of battery. But no, when I shoot people from behind I'm in my stealth ninja mode. I mean it comes down to what gun fits you.

No matter if it's a Glock, Xd, m&p, CZ, Sig, etc. I know some people always want to blame Glock. However, some think Glock is the end all pistol. Personally I like different brands, and styles of guns. As long as it what I look for in a pistol. It comes down to what is comfortable, reliable, and easiest for you to train with, and carry. Situational awareness is the most key aspect of survival in any situation. Honestly if my gun is pressed into someones body. Hopefully that distracts them, and they go for the pistol. I mean if someone presses a gun against me, my first thought is disable his shooting hand or go for the gun directly. If he does go for the gun, I'm going to go for a nut or throat shot.

So lets all give each other a big ingunowners hug, and sit around the camp fire with some marshmallows.

 

[mettle]

No, we don't train for the worst scenarios. we train for bad scenarios that are likely to happen. If we trained for the worst scenarios, we'd forget about handguns, except as backup, and train exclusively with shotguns and battle rifles against communist invasions, mob scenarios, and riots.

Does Steve or whoever also go over the scenario where after you jam your pistol in the BG's ribs, and it goes out of battery, he grabs it, and keeps it out of battery, and you go for your BUG, and he grabs that one too, and head butts you? because, really, I think that'd be a worse scenario than the first one you gave, and I don't want you to miss one.


ok. well step back and take a critical look at the information you were given. I don't care who taught you, whether it was Steve, or Shay, or that piazza guy or Col Cooper. well I was got, because I assumed that pistol recoil would cause pain to my thumb, but having never tried it, I'll take the word of those who have. wouldn't it be just as easy to pull your weapon away from the aggressor and allow it to go back into battery? And if there isn't room between my body and his body, then can't I just push the back of my slide against my body to put it back into battery? Isn't that the point of this scenario? it's the only way that it will work. I don't have a 1911 Ok, now you're just adding numbers and words to lengthen your post still adding numbers and words sure, who doesn't?
Oh, now you tell me. <-that was the best blue guy I could find.

Wow. I'm noticing a downward spiral here... everything seems to be personal for some reason; 'adding numbers and words...'? Let's keep the penis measuring for some other thread OK? Now I'm sorry I even responded. I'm sorry you feel like you have to be superior. I'm also sorry this has digressed the whole purpose of the OP. Sorry Rob.

 

[esrice]

**Note**

I moved all the posts on this topic here, as to not clutter up the other thread.

If I can not see my target I am not going to shoot.

Ever? Can you imagine any scenario when you would?

What about this-- you've been assaulted (from ANY direction) and you are now grappling with your assailant. It's obvious that his intent is to kill or maim you, so we'll assume that deadly force is warranted. During the scuffle, his position changes to where he is now behind you, almost in a bear hug. You get an arm free and draw your weapon. Your head is pinned up against a car/tree/wall and you can't "see" the BG. You take your thumb, press it up against the back of the slide, and put the slide in the BG's gut (in the same fashion as the above picture). Would you not pull the trigger simply because you couldn't see him at that moment?

So lets all give each other a big ingunowners hug, and sit around the camp fire with some marshmallows.

I love campfires! I really do appreciate the conversation and debate.

 

[Fenway]

Before these became the Springfield show did the early HS2000s have this grip safety. I realize they are still made in Croatia... Just curious

 

[esrice]

Before these became the Springfield show did the early HS2000s have this grip safety. I realize they are still made in Croatia... Just curious

According to this, it was part of the original HS2000 design.

Modern Firearms - Handguns - HS2000 / Springfield XD pistol

 

[ihateiraq]

We could go back and forth all day coming up with progressively worse scenarios. My point was that shooting someone from across a room is the "norm" (in the training world), while shooting someone at contact distance is not. Therefore, don't discount the technique simply because it is less likely to be used.

Also note, I said "worse scenarios", not "worst".

have you trained for the situation in which both your hands have been crushed with some blunt object? gotta work on toe dexterity too. its an oft neglected skill.

 

[kingnereli]

47 internal safeties?? Somebody get kingnereli a paper bag, he's hyperventilating.

Okay, I do feel better, but you mark my words. It'll happen. 5th generation glock, 3rd generation XDs and 2nd generation M&Ps will have precisely 47. Remember this day and and the mystery of my foreknowledge....UHHhhuu hyperventilating again. Where's that bag...

 

[rhino]

Dude:
3. The WHOLE point of this conversation was simply talking about how a pistol grip disables the pistol IF, ..... IF.... IF you happen to be rushed by an aggressor and you pull your pistol to implement, it impacts the assailant, the pistol is pushed out of battery----and if you have an XD or 1911--- you cannot fire the weapon if you try and force the slide back into place with your thumb on your firing hand.

I guess it's probably a good thing for idiots (like me) who continue to carry guns with grip safeties that pushing the slide forward with your thumb isn't the only way to deal with that situation, even if you only have one hand available.

 

[Fenway]

So how do you do it? I could care less about this grip safety debate. Just curious.

I guess it's probably a good thing for idiots (like me) who continue to carry guns with grip safeties that pushing the slide forward with your thumb isn't the only way to deal with that situation, even if you only have one hand available.

 

[Suprtek]

I'm wondering if I could use this scenario to justify buying that extended length compensated barrel I've had my eye on for my XD?

 

[TFin04]

Ahhh....I love the internet.

This entire thing started simply as an example of a situation that may, or may not (probably not) ever be an issue, but something that is discussed in close contact classes.

Take a few pictures of that, post them online, and viola, we have people behind a keyboard, who have never done any of this themselves, who all of a sudden are in a position to know exactly how the conversation went down, and be able to critique it from all angles based on two of three photographs. Major fail.

Go shoot, learn something. Take from it what you think is important, discard the rest.

The irony from this is the best. The XD crowd mentions the extended guide rod housing as a feature to avoid this problem, yet when we prove that doesn't actually prevent it from happening, all of a sudden this scenario is invalid and too rare to make it worth discussing. This 'advantage' has long been talked about with revolvers as well, nobody seems to have an issue there. But add a couple modern semi auto's into the mix, and the short bus implodes.

 

[groovatron]

This thread is making me realize that Brownings original 1911 design without the grip safety may just be the perfect sidearm. Maybe I should permenantly pin down the grip saftey on one of my 1911's.......Hmm...maybe not.

 

[lawrra]

So how do you do it? I could care less about this grip safety debate. Just curious.

Well, first, you grab it by the haunches...

 

[mettle]

Ahhh....I love the internet.

This entire thing started simply as an example of a situation that may, or may not (probably not) ever be an issue, but something that is discussed in close contact classes.

Take a few pictures of that, post them online, and viola, we have people behind a keyboard, who have never done any of this themselves, who all of a sudden are in a position to know exactly how the conversation went down, and be able to critique it from all angles based on two of three photographs. Major fail.

Go shoot, learn something. Take from it what you think is important, discard the rest.

The irony from this is the best. The XD crowd mentions the extended guide rod housing as a feature to avoid this problem, yet when we prove that doesn't actually prevent it from happening, all of a sudden this scenario is invalid and too rare to make it worth discussing. This 'advantage' has long been talked about with revolvers as well, nobody seems to have an issue there. But add a couple modern semi auto's into the mix, and the short bus implodes.

This is all my fault. I should have NEVER mentioned anything about what Steve spoke about. I should have just let the ship take it's course. This entire other thread would not exist if I would have never mentioned anything. Now I feel I've brought unneeded attention to you Tom, and Steve. So much for making a joke of something...

 

[kingnereli]

Ahhh....I love the internet.

This entire thing started simply as an example of a situation that may, or may not (probably not) ever be an issue, but something that is discussed in close contact classes.

Actually, it started as a argument that was intended to be a compelling case against the presence of a grip safety on a self defense pistol and, at least for one person, was the cited reason for a "no go" for the XD

Take a few pictures of that, post them online, and viola, we have people behind a keyboard,

I'm situated in front of my key board, thank you.

who have never done any of this themselves, who all of a sudden are in a position to know exactly how the conversation went down, and be able to critique it from all angles based on two of three photographs. Major fail.

I have admittedly not extensively practiced this particular technique. I have came across it in training and have dismissed it as impractical and overall not the best solution. Today, I was actually quite curious about a scenarios where this would be a viable option and worked this over with some gun buddies to see if we could create a situation where this would be my go-to technique. The experiment validated my stance on it. The only time that it was very difficult to do anything other then this was with a rear bear hug type attack where the attacker had his left arm around my left shoulder and an underhook around my right shoulder. All others still allowed for me me to spin my hips out and shoot from the retention position.

My judo practicing brother made a very good point to me on this as well. The first time we tried this I gave him the scenario and instructions to attack me in such a way as to not allow me to use my gun (my fingers held in the shape of a gun for you safety nuts)against him. He proceeded to hip toss me from behind before I could do much of anything. Our conclusion today was that any attack from behind isn't going to turn into some standing struggle. The attack is going to be oriented to either take things to the ground or will be focused on the controlling the gun hand.

Regardless of all that; possible, unlikely scenarios aren't the linchpin to a good argument against a particular safety mechanism. I thought it was the purpose of open discussion on a forum such as this to critique things from all possible angles.

Go shoot, learn something. Take from it what you think is important, discard the rest.

That is sound advice. Some of us have discarded the option of using a pistol equipped with a grip safety while others have discarded the technique that is under discussion.

The irony from this is the best. The XD crowd mentions the extended guide rod housing as a feature to avoid this problem, yet when we prove that doesn't actually prevent it from happening, all of a sudden this scenario is invalid and too rare to make it worth discussing.

The "crowd" didn't mention anything. That point was made by, I think, one person and the scenario was invalid long before it was made.

This 'advantage' has long been talked about with revolvers as well, nobody seems to have an issue there. But add a couple modern semi auto's into the mix, and the short bus implodes.

I googled "short bus implodes" and this is what I came up with.

They look like the type of guys who carry XDs so you may be on to something.

 

[esrice]

have you trained for the situation in which both your hands have been crushed with some blunt object? gotta work on toe dexterity too. its an oft neglected skill.

No, but I've trained to avoid roving musicians in dark alleys.