CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[Jludo]

I believe this grenade was thrown in my direction.

Were Jesus to walk around the Vatican, He would see a direct succession of men trying to do His work directly from Peter. At one level, He would be gratified to know that there is an incredibly big infrastructure all organized to further His ministry. It is by no means perfect, and humans do embarrassing things - even humans dedicated to Him.

Frankly, the modern Vatican is probably closer to His directives than at other times in its history. He would certainly be ashamed of episodes in the Vatican's past.

Of course, I'm puzzled a bit by the use of the hypothetical "would be" construct. Some of us believe He is present at the Vatican both spiritually and physically (on a regular basis).

In my reading of the bible I never got the feeling Jesus would have that feeling. Big infrastructure, power and wealth, In neither his actions nor his teachings do I get the feeling the modern catholic church is what he had in mind.

How comfortable do you get the feeling Jesus would be hanging out up on this stage?

 

[T.Lex]

In my reading of the bible I never got the feeling Jesus would have that feeling. Big infrastructure, power and wealth, In neither his actions nor his teachings do I get the feeling the modern catholic church is what he had in mind.

I'm still not sure of the framework for this discussion. Jesus already knows what goes on.

In terms of His words and actions, he was creating a revolution. He created a new order. That order was not intended to be self-regulated.

How comfortable do you get the feeling Jesus would be hanging out up on this stage?
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Nor this?

Or perhaps this was more what He had in mind?

Same faith.

 

[Jludo]

Comparing the catholic church to the prosperity gospel doesn't exactly help your case. If you think what Joel Olsteen manages to do in separating people from their money is despicable I can't imagine you find the Catholic Church's practices wholesome.

 

[Brad69]

Leave the Prosperity Preachers out of this!

I am working on becoming one

1. you need a jet airplane to get close to god
2. the more $$ you give the closer you are to god
3. a parsonage should be no less than $30 million

 

[Jludo]

Leave the Prosperity Preachers out of this!

I am working on becoming one

1. you need a jet airplane to get close to god
2. the more $$ you give the closer you are to god
3. a parsonage should be no less than $30 million

Hey I'm fine with it, it's the Catholics who look down upon you, God cleared it up years ago, buying trinkets to get into heaven is immoral but they're still gonna need that 10%.

 

[JettaKnight]

Comparing the catholic church to the prosperity gospel doesn't exactly help your case. If you think what Joel Olsteen manages to do in separating people from their money is despicable I can't imagine you find the Catholic Church's practices wholesome.

In their defense...

The RCC has had a long, long time to build up wealth (for lack of a better word). Those cathedrals took decades up decades of years to build, and they were built for honoring God, apart from any individual. They still stand, filled with stained glass that depict the Story. There was no cult of personality (could people then even be able to name the pope?)


When Joel dies, what will happen to his "church"? I imagine Houston will just implode that building.


Since you often fail to note the demarcation between OT & NT, I would think a fancy building, a la King Solomon's temple, would be OK with you Jludo.

 

[Jludo]

In their defense...

The RCC has had a long, long time to build up wealth (for lack of a better word). Those cathedrals took decades up decades of years to build, and they were built for honoring God, apart from any individual. They still stand, filled with stained glass that depict the Story. There was no cult of personality (could people then even be able to name the pope?)

When Joel dies, what will happen to his "church"? I imagine Houston will just implode that building.

So because it's an organization that's the owner of the wealth it's not to be criticized the same as an individual? I find both conflict with my reading of the bible.

 

[Jludo]

Since you often fail to note the demarcation between OT & NT, I would think a fancy building, a la King Solomon's temple, would be OK with you Jludo.

If I'm not ok with it now why would I be ok with it back then? Get me a time machine and I'll go to town on the Israeli spear owners forum too.

 

[Dead Duck]

I'm happy with a tent in the desert, thank you.

 

[JettaKnight]

So because it's an organization that's the owner of the wealth it's not to be criticized the same as an individual? I find both conflict with my reading of the bible.

Just saying they're different.

If I'm not ok with it now why would I be ok with it back then? Get me a time machine and I'll go to town on the Israeli spear owners forum too.

My point is, you brought up a question, "What if God told you to go kill a family member", which indicates that you haven't completely grasped the radical change in operation that took place through Christ. As to the OT, the tabernacle and temple were filled with gold and jewels and fine woodworking because God asked for it then.



Look, I'm not straight up defending the RCC amassing wealth. But, I not condemning it. No make how much or how little, their will always be some contention over it. I guess the question needs to be asked, "Is this helping bring glory to God and Light to the lost?" That struggle exist no matter what. And if you think it's hypocritical, well, guilty as charged. Congratulations, you've pointed out how we're not perfect.

 

[T.Lex]

Comparing the catholic church to the prosperity gospel doesn't exactly help your case. If you think what Joel Olsteen manages to do in separating people from their money is despicable I can't imagine you find the Catholic Church's practices wholesome.

Well, I wasn't making the comparison, really, just pointing out that you were singling out the Catholic Church for criticism and ignoring others.

You also don't address my other pic. You know... the one with a devout Catholic ministering to the poor with the support of the amassed wealth of the larger church.

I'd like to hear more about your reading of the bible. For instance, the part where Jesus sends out his disciples in pairs to spread His word.

What is that, if not the creation of an infrastructure?

In their defense...

The RCC has had a long, long time to build up wealth (for lack of a better word). Those cathedrals took decades up decades of years to build, and they were built for honoring God, apart from any individual. They still stand, filled with stained glass that depict the Story. There was no cult of personality (could people then even be able to name the pope?)

Mostly this.

I am not completely comfortable with some aspects of it, too. But, the reality is that the current church holds it in trust for the future church. With few exceptions, the Vatican residents do not live as "high on the hog" as the Joel Osteen types do. (Hedonistic parties by some priests perhaps notwithstanding.)

 

[T.Lex]

Look, I'm not straight up defending the RCC amassing wealth. But, I not condemning it. No make how much or how little, their will always be some contention over it. I guess the question needs to be asked, "Is this helping bring glory to God and Light to the lost?" That struggle exist no matter what.

Carmel is one of the most well-off communities in the state (in the country by some accounts). The primary Catholic church there, Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, probably has one of the biggest budgets of all parishes in the state.

It also operates a really fantastic ministry to the poor in Hamilton County.
https://mercifulhelpcenter.org/about

That is really a reflection of the larger, international church. Those poverty-stricken parishes in Rio, Mexico City, Haiti, Calcutta, etc., are supported at least in part by the larger church.

For as disappointed as Jesus might be in the sinfulness of some of the leadership, He would also be gratified (I think) by the work done there and in places like China and the Middle East among the Christian communities (not just Catholic) who offer Him to people at great risk.

They, too, are not necessarily self-sufficient.

 

[Jludo]

You also don't address my other pic. You know... the one with a devout Catholic ministering to the poor with the support of the amassed wealth of the larger church.

Was that meant to be a defense of the Vatican? Think of how much more they could do if they sold off some art and real estate holdings. acknowledging the good things they do doesn't somehow absolve them of criticism in other areas.

 

[Jludo]

Carmel is one of the most well-off communities in the state (in the country by some accounts). The primary Catholic church there, Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, probably has one of the biggest budgets of all parishes in the state.

It also operates a really fantastic ministry to the poor in Hamilton County.
https://mercifulhelpcenter.org/about

That is really a reflection of the larger, international church. Those poverty-stricken parishes in Rio, Mexico City, Haiti, Calcutta, etc., are supported at least in part by the larger church.

For as disappointed as Jesus might be in the sinfulness of some of the leadership, He would also be gratified (I think) by the work done there and in places like China and the Middle East among the Christian communities (not just Catholic) who offer Him to people at great risk.

They, too, are not necessarily self-sufficient.

All of your defense has been of the catholic church as an organization. All of that could operate out of a business park building. My criticism is with the Vatican.

If there is a single piece of art in the Vatican that could be sold and the funds used to help someone in need, what would the Christian thing to do be?

 

[BugI02]

Comparing the catholic church to the prosperity gospel doesn't exactly help your case. If you think what Joel Olsteen manages to do in separating people from their money is despicable I can't imagine you find the Catholic Church's practices wholesome.

One is covered by Matthew 16:18, and one is covered by Mark 7:6 - and Christ himself tells you which is which

 

[T.Lex]

Was that meant to be a defense of the Vatican? Think of how much more they could do if they sold off some art and real estate holdings. acknowledging the good things they do doesn't somehow absolve them of criticism in other areas.

Yet, you do not acknowledge that "the Vatican" does good things.

Let's say the Vatican liquidated everything of value this coming Sunday. The coffers balloon to billions and billions of dollars. Then every penny is apportioned to every parish in the world (by whatever formula you choose).

How long will that last? A generation? In some places, far less.

What has taken 2,000 years to acquire is entrusted to the modern church. It is blessed to have such. It, like the larger flock, must be safeguarded.

But, you've singled out the Vatican. Is it simply the most convenient target for your scorn, for your judgment? Is the abundance of wealth held by the Vatican the source of your displeasure with all religion?

There are ascetic branches of Catholicism, too, that might interest you. The Mendicant Orders take a vow of poverty that reject all possessions. (I think one of them only allows their members to own 7 items, including clothes.)

 

[JettaKnight]

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Next time you look at those priest in their fancy clothes, just remember: "I can have guilt free sex with my spouse any time."



Yesterday I found myself wasting time in the genealogy dept. of the library and I came across the minutes from Clear Creek Church of the Brethren in Huntington, Co. There was all sorts of charges brought against members, a lot of "Sister so-and-so was charged with wearing inappropriate clothing". In other words, it can certainly get carried away in the other direction.

 

[Jludo]

if you think it's hypocritical, well, guilty as charged. Congratulations, you've pointed out how we're not perfect.

Clearly I think it's hypocritical, is this saying you agree?
It seems obvious to me and I've no skin in the game so I have no problem pointing it out, yet it seems if one is a part of the organization they feel they need to defend/justify every part of it.
Can't just say 'clearly selling a few billion of the church's art holdings and giving to the needy would make Jesus more proud of a church supposedly made in his image'

 

[Jludo]

Yet, you do not acknowledge that "the Vatican" does good things.

The Catholic church does some good things.

 

[T.Lex]

All of your defense has been of the catholic church as an organization. All of that could operate out of a business park building. My criticism is with the Vatican.

If there is a single piece of art in the Vatican that could be sold and the funds used to help someone in need, what would the Christian thing to do be?

Well, you'll forgive me for my inability to separate the leadership - both governmental and spiritual - from the church itself.

The Vatican isn't just a place, or a museum, or a building. It is not a corporate business park. Your criticism of your construct of "the Vatican" is criticism of the church at large.

And, I think I effectively answered your "but what about 1 painting" question earlier. The current pope actually has positions close to what you seek. If he were allowed to voice his personal view, he'd probably be willing to sell some of the "stuff" to buy meals for the poor across the world. That's kinda how Jesuits are wired.

But again, each pope inherits the trust of God and the church to safeguard those artifacts. Could he? Probably. Should he? Only after prayerful consideration of God's will on the matter.

If Pope Francis decided to do some housecleaning at auction, I would be unlikely to criticize him for it. At the same time, the church does not appear to be wanting for capital. People to take up the religious orders, yes.