CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[Jludo]

There's nothing that a person can do to redeem themselves.

My view is that you can either accept this reality, or deny it.
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I was under the impression accepting christ is what a person did to achieve redemption.

 

[Jludo]

Rather, in my life experience, I see evidence of a transcendent consciousness of significant powers that we do not fully understand. That's not imagination-based; it is based on my own observations.

Truly not trying to offend here but that sounds like a lack of understanding of the human mind, of just how susceptible and fragile conciousness is. For example the experiments with transcranial direct magnetic stimulation being able to reliably induce religious experiences in people. Or simpler than that the understanding how brain states can be reliably altered base purely on introducing certain molecules. These experiences are as 'real' as anything else you experience in life. And those who have been party to this are just as convinced as you that their 'God' is the correct one.

 

[JettaKnight]

I was under the impression accepting christ is what a person did to achieve redemption.

Yeah... so this theology gets into "how many angels can dance on a pinhead?" territory. Yet it's significant enough to characterize denominations.

Paul tells the Roman church (and us) that we are like rotting corpses dead on the seafloor, and Christ comes to reach to us.
For me to "accept Christ" would be doing work on my part, yet we are told by Paul that no work can ever bring us to Christ.

Really, it's looking at two sides of a coin, but we're all 100 yards away, and there's a heavy fog, at night... the exact mechanism of salvation isn't really known, but there's two prevailing theories, Calvinism and Arminianism. I side with the former now; my wife with the latter.

Really, it doesn't have a whole lot of effect when it comes to practice - we all go and spread the Good News in the same manner.

 

[Jludo]

Rather, in my life experience, I see evidence of a transcendent consciousness of significant powers that we do not fully understand. That's not imagination-based; it is based on my own observations.

That still doesnt answer the question then of how you decide on the Christian god. Is it because that's what your parents taught you? There are countless religions, did you just get lucky to find the right one?
Or was it just that god spoke to you and told you this is the correct one?
If he spoke to you and said to kill a family member, if you truly believed it was god you would trust that voice over your own innate moral compass?

 

[JettaKnight]

That still doesnt answer the question then of how you decide on the Christian god. Is it because that's what your parents taught you? There are countless religions, did you just get lucky to find the right one?
Or was it just that god spoke to you and told you this is the correct one?

I totally understand you're point, and the best I can say is yes, call it fate, but I haven't just blindly accepted it just because of my upbringing.

It's worth noting that Protestantism seems to be the least "cultural" in that sense, no? On the other end would be Judaism, where for many (most?) it's completely disconnected from a true sense of a belief in God.

If he spoke to you and said to kill a family member, if you truly believed it was god you would trust that voice over your own innate moral compass?

I get where you're coming from, but that's akin to, "can God create a rock so big he can't lift it?"

My teacher always said his answer is, "Yes, he made your head."

 

[Brad69]

Paul was the anti christ !

I thought everyone knew that?

The Anti-Christ Paul.

 

[JettaKnight]

Paul was the anti christ !

I thought everyone knew that?

The Anti-Christ Paul.

That makes for amusing reading.

Be ye followers of me… that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered [them] to you. (1 Corinthians 11:1)

Well, when you cut out the important bit:

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

EDIT: That whole article is full of cherry-picking that would make Joel Osteen and Kenneth Copeland proud!


And thought KJV only crowd had a lock on the 1995 web look!

 

[T.Lex]

I hope it doesn't feel like jetta and I are gang tackling you.

I'm more than happy to bow out, as I'm generally a reluctant evangelist, but this seems to be a productive conversation.

Truly not trying to offend here but that sounds like a lack of understanding of the human mind, of just how susceptible and fragile conciousness is. For example the experiments with transcranial direct magnetic stimulation being able to reliably induce religious experiences in people. Or simpler than that the understanding how brain states can be reliably altered base purely on introducing certain molecules. These experiences are as 'real' as anything else you experience in life. And those who have been party to this are just as convinced as you that their 'God' is the correct one.

Oh, I'm not talking about those kinds of experiences. I'm talking about observations that lead me to believe in a higher power. Much more mundane than near-death experiences and things like that. More along the lines of when [x] stimulus happens [y] result occurs, but in the absence of [x] then [z] occurs, with [x] being faith.

That still doesnt answer the question then of how you decide on the Christian god. Is it because that's what your parents taught you? There are countless religions, did you just get lucky to find the right one?
Or was it just that god spoke to you and told you this is the correct one?

Great questions about faith formation. Everyone's journey is different. Mine included a handful of years in search of the appropriate manifestation of my faith. Indeed, I did look at other faith traditions, and even my own thoughts on what a religion should be.

I reached what I believe to be an independent conclusion that I was called to be a Catholic. Maybe it was "nurture" in that I was raised Catholic - experimentation has yet to reveal the precise delineation between the effects of nature and nurture.

I won't begrudge anyone their own journey; I can really only describe mine.

If he spoke to you and said to kill a family member, if you truly believed it was god you would trust that voice over your own innate moral compass?

So this is a fundamentally different question that does rely on a pre-condition: "hearing" God speak.

I don't know that I've ever "heard" Him. There have been times I've felt His nearness. There are other times I feel drawn to do things that I believe are consistent with His will. Most of the time, I feel like I'm left to figure it out for myself, like a test. I do pray for Him to keep me on the path He intends for me. However, I know that the bulk of that piloting is on my shoulders.

If I am ever called to do something dramatic, I hope my faith is strong enough to properly discern my role.

 

[Jludo]

Im curious then, most here willing to engage on these questions seem to have at least thought about them before. A big number, if not a majority of Christian's haven't actually thought about these challenges. That could just be the sample size of Christian's I've actually met but most either haven't thought about any of the challenges before or simply say ' I dont know/ I'm not smart enough to understand'
A surprising number have never actually read the text and are surprised by a lot of what's in it.

Is it just as valid to be a Christian who's never known anything else, never read through the entire bible, never heard a challenge to their faith, never had to think critically about what they profess to believe?

Seems that we are just lucky in american that most got it right? Or is there a high proportion who are just Christian because that's what they were born into?

 

[Jludo]

If I am ever called to do something dramatic, I hope my faith is strong enough to properly discern my role.

Is there a possibility though that your role could conceivably be anything? And if you felt strongly enough it was God speaking to you, you'd follow through?

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Is there a possibility though that your role could conceivably be anything? And if you felt strongly enough it was God speaking to you, you'd follow through?

 

[Jludo]

Yea at some base level I think I trust humans innate moral compass more than I do their understanding of what god is telling them to do. Though obviously there are examples of both causing issues.

 

[JettaKnight]

I hope it doesn't feel like jetta and I are gang tackling you.

I'm more than happy to bow out, as I'm generally a reluctant evangelist, but this seems to be a productive conversation.

We're in the process of moving, so eventually they're going to shut off the network today... I'm just biding time till then.

Im curious then, most here willing to engage on these questions seem to have at least thought about them before. A big number, if not a majority of Christian's haven't actually thought about these challenges. That could just be the sample size of Christian's I've actually met but most either haven't thought about any of the challenges before or simply say ' I dont know/ I'm not smart enough to understand'
A surprising number have never actually read the text and are surprised by a lot of what's in it.

Sadly, a very great number of Christians can't answer hard question, and can't be bothered to dig in. To many, the Bible is, "Live, Love, Laugh".

In our Bible study (college kids), I asked, "Would you agree that the main theme of the Bible is to show us how to be better?"
[nodding]

Nope. The main theme of the Bible is the scarlet thread - the creation, the fall, the redemption by the blood of Christ.

And those students pretty much came from Christian homes, so I wouldn't place them out of line from the gen.pop. Christians.

Is it just as valid to be a Christian who's never known anything else, never read through the entire bible, never heard a challenge to their faith, never had to think critically about what they profess to believe?

That's a question I can't answer, but I can lament the lack of solid theology.

 

[Jludo]

That's a question I can't answer, but I can lament the lack of solid theology.

Is that diplomatically and humbly you can't pretend to know but in the back of your head you're leaning towards an answer? Ha

 

[JettaKnight]

Yea at some base level I think I trust humans innate moral compass more than I do their understanding of what god is telling them to do. Though obviously there are examples of both causing issues.

Have you been to the Insane Social Justice thread? I I'll stick with God's morality over mans.


As to the "what if God said..." GPAI7R nailed it; anytime I hear "God said to me..." I instantly stop listening.
Test all things against Scripture (or in Foszoe's case "and the Church").

 

[Brad69]

This thread is really helping out my efforts to become a prosperity preacher that uses the Bible verses to “enlighten” people.
I have worked on the self esteem thing “you are great” “you are strong” “you are rich” “you are important” !

I then preached a sermon to my wife’s cats about MOAB and his god Chemosh then about the Ammonites and their God Milcom.

 

[JettaKnight]

Is that diplomatically and humbly you can't pretend to know but in the back of your head you're leaning towards an answer? Ha

J.D. Greear (now pres. of SBC) wrote a book titled, "Stop Asking Jesus into Your Heart" where he addresses these sorts of lukewarm Christians who never progress past their spiritual infancy of constantly "rededicatating" their life to Christ every summer at camp. (I lost count at how many times I raised my hand and prayed while singing 'It Only Takes a Spark' while sitting at a bonfire)

If you're not progressing (aka "sanctification"), are you really a disciple of Christ?

Christianity isn't a "one and done" thing. You can't recite and incantation at age 8 then go on to live a rebellious life but be confident you have "fire insurance".


I can't pass judgement, but I can ask that leading question.

 

[T.Lex]

To me, an agnostic/atheist pointing at... lukewarm members of a church as justification for not belonging to that church is interesting. I mean, IF one believes in God, you don't HAVE to be lukewarm. You can be enthusiastic about it.

Or, if you want to be lukewarm, that's at least better than nothing. (Pascal's gambit and all that.)

Some people are perfectly happy accepting a TV commercial branding that a product is great. Nothing wrong with that.

Others read reviews of the product, talk to other people with it, and do some due diligence. Nothing wrong with that.

Still others determine what materials are in the product, what the manufacturing process entails, what other options are out there that may have more beneficial processes, perhaps even do site visits to confirm they are comfortable with the product. Nothing wrong with that, either.

The point is, we get to decide how far to take it. Asking the questions is the first step.

 

[Jludo]

Have you been to the Insane Social Justice thread? I I'll stick with God's morality over mans.


As to the "what if God said..." GPAI7R nailed it; anytime I hear "God said to me..." I instantly stop listening.
Test all things against Scripture (or in Foszoe's case "and the Church").

You can find god commanding genocide in scripture, the God book has verses that can justify anything you want them to.

 

[JettaKnight]

Or, if you want to be lukewarm, that's at least better than nothing. (Pascal's gambit and all that.)

Well, not according to Revelation 3:16.

Pascal's wager is essentially what I refer to as "fire insurance".