CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[historian]

Also relevant:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/hidden-trust-prosperity-gospel/

 

[rvb]

I've wanted to reply but been swamped, and this will be shorter than I'd like...

Paul, It sounds like a situation where the God we have isn't the God you want; and that His answers to prayers aren't the answers you want. He gave us a perfect world, but we humans chose to know evil. Now you're asking why we don't have utopia...

As for some of those verses that God will give us what we want if we ask, I've always felt there are two subtle pieces to those....

1st, God has to believe that granting the wish (makes him sound like a magic genie) is the right thing to do for his bigger purposes. Just because we really believe and we really want him to move that mountain, doesn't mean he's going to choose do it. I know the verse says he will, but even just logically, he can't say "yes" to everything... there would be so many conflicting prayers to make it impossible ("Please God remove Trump from office / Please God watch over Trump's Presidency"). So to me it's more of he "can" vs he "will." When Jesus teaches us to pray, we're to pray for "His" will to be done, not ours. Is it horrible that kids are raped, of course. Do I understand "why?" no not at all. All I can do is "ask" God for healing for those kids/families and that correct earthly justice is done.

2nd I think there's a hint of indictment in those verses regarding the strength of our faith. Do you really, really believe God will do it for you? Even the most faithful among us has but a tiny piece of the faith God wants us to have. God says a "mustard seed" of faith (a tiny bit) is all that's required to move mountains, do we have even that? Peter, after having enough faith to be the only person besides Jesus to walk on water, was described by Jesus as "you of little faith." Peter was probably among the most faithful people to ever live, yet is described by Jesus as having so little.

-rvb

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I've wanted to reply but been swamped, and this will be shorter than I'd like...

Paul, It sounds like a situation where the God we have isn't the God you want; and that His answers to prayers aren't the answers you want. He gave us a perfect world, but we humans chose to know evil. Now you're asking why we don't have utopia...

As for some of those verses that God will give us what we want if we ask, I've always felt there are two subtle pieces to those....

1st, God has to believe that granting the wish (makes him sound like a magic genie) is the right thing to do for his bigger purposes. Just because we really believe and we really want him to move that mountain, doesn't mean he's going to choose do it. I know the verse says he will, but even just logically, he can't say "yes" to everything... there would be so many conflicting prayers to make it impossible ("Please God remove Trump from office / Please God watch over Trump's Presidency"). So to me it's more of he "can" vs he "will." When Jesus teaches us to pray, we're to pray for "His" will to be done, not ours. Is it horrible that kids are raped, of course. Do I understand "why?" no not at all. All I can do is "ask" God for healing for those kids/families and that correct earthly justice is done.

2nd I think there's a hint of indictment in those verses regarding the strength of our faith. Do you really, really believe God will do it for you? Even the most faithful among us has but a tiny piece of the faith God wants us to have. God says a "mustard seed" of faith (a tiny bit) is all that's required to move mountains, do we have even that? Peter, after having enough faith to be the only person besides Jesus to walk on water, was described by Jesus as "you of little faith." Peter was probably among the most faithful people to ever live, yet is described by Jesus as having so little.

-rvb

Good points, Ryan. Well said. People often forget that there were eye-witnesses to Jesus doing all kinds of miracles...they saw him heal the blind, the lame, the sick, they even saw him bring a guy back from the dead once, yet chose not to believe.

 

[rvb]

Good points, Ryan. Well said. People often forget that there were eye-witnesses to Jesus doing all kinds of miracles...they saw him heal the blind, the lame, the sick, they even saw him bring a guy back from the dead once, yet chose not to believe.

I believe there were 3 or 4 he brought back from the dead, right? In addition to himself..........
-rvb

 

[PaulF]

BBI, RVB, Fozoe, Hostorian, Dead Duck, GFGT... Lot of great responses that I haven’t been able to address...there’s a lot to unpack!

I’ve been trying to keep off INGO at work, so I’ll circle back around to some of these points maybe this evening. I’m trying really hard to keep from posting one of my usual walls of text.

 

[historian]

I’ve been trying to keep off INGO at work,

Someone needs to swing the ban-hammer! Why would we want a responsible person among us?

 

[printcraft]

Meanwhile in Arkansas....

https://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBl...ansas-rally-at-capitol-with-emblematic-statue

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/offbe...-rally-at-ark-capitol-senator-rapert-responds

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I believe there were 3 or 4 he brought back from the dead, right? In addition to himself..........
-rvb

I was thinking of Lazarus. Who else am I missing?

 

[rvb]

Well Lazarus was one, the preachers daughter (he was with Jesus when he got the news she had died), and the widows son who was in the coffin.... for some reason I was thinking there were a couple more, maybe those were OT.

edit: stories in Luke 7 and 8
Edit2: oh, and the "many" that were raised when Jesus died!

Edit3: did a quick google.... forgot about the ones raised by peter and Paul in Acts. And there were a couple OT resurrections.
https://www.gotquestions.org/raised-from-the-dead.html

-rvb

 

[ArcadiaGP]

The Catholic League "rebuttal" to the Pennsylvania grand jury report is as bad as you'd expect.

One of the priests was groping teens, not children. This is a defense, somehow.

Also, the Catholic League suggests the percentage of priests involved is "quite small."

It estimates there were a mere 150 abusive priests who had their abuses covered up by Church officials which enabled them to go on abusing. Oh, alright.

The Catholic League is actually lying about Zirwas only groping teens. This is from page 231 of the report, covering one of the earliest allegations against Zirwas. "A little boy."

 

[Brad69]

So I cannot find anything about Devil worshipping people abusing children?

Still can’t find anything about abusing children in the Bible?

Where do we find the authority and rules to abuse children in the name of God?
Complete with a system to enable and cover up and enable some more?

I have a feeling Big “G” is gonna get some vengeance on a lot of people’s!

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Just stop covering for these people. Just stop it.

 

[T.Lex]

The Vatican's response was more appropriate IMHO.

Vatican Responds to PA Grand Jury Report

Regarding the report made public in Pennsylvania this week, there are two words that can express the feelings faced with these horrible crimes: shame and sorrow. The Holy See treats with great seriousness the work of the Investigating Grand Jury of Pennsylvania and the lengthy Interim Report it has produced. The Holy See condemns unequivocally the sexual abuse of minors.

The abuses described in the report are criminal and morally reprehensible. Those acts were betrayals of trust that robbed survivors of their dignity and their faith. The Church must learn hard lessons from its past, and there should be accountability for both abusers and those who permitted abuse to occur.

Most of the discussion in the report concerns abuses before the early 2000s. By finding almost no cases after 2002, the Grand Jury’s conclusions are consistent with previous studies showing that Catholic Church reforms in the United States drastically reduced the incidence of clergy child abuse. The Holy See encourages continued reform and vigilance at all levels of the Catholic Church, to help ensure the protection of minors and vulnerable adults from harm. The Holy See also wants to underscore the need to comply with the civil law, including mandatory child abuse reporting requirements.

The Holy Father understands well how much these crimes can shake the faith and the spirt of believers and reiterates the call to make every effort to create a safe environment for minors and vulnerable adults in the Church and in all of society. Victims should know that the Pope is on their side. Those who have suffered are his priority, and the Church wants to listen to them to root out this tragic horror that destroys the lives of the innocent.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Interesting. The podcast I'm listening to seems to believe this is a PR move to distance their church from baggage some associate with the nicknames of Mormons (especially) and LDS.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article...elines-dropping-term-mormon-in-most-uses.html

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Edit: Catholic League is run by Bill Donohue. I understand his word on these subjects are not "official" by any means. He's said some pretty messed up things in the past.

Unfortunate choice of words... "little boys"?

It is interesting to note that the most irrational, indeed hysterical, reaction to PA grand jury report is coming from conservative Catholics. They are singularly incapable of making a cogent argument, so all they do is vent like little boys. They are a pitiful lot.

https://twitter.com/CatholicLeague/status/1030445791691923456

They're going on quite the rant.

This tweet has quite the ratio: https://twitter.com/CatholicLeague/status/1030242871822245893

There is no on-going crisis—it's a total myth. In fact, there is no institution, private or public, that has less of a problem with the sexual abuse of minors today than the Catholic Church.

 

[foszoe]

PaulF,

Jesus says that God gives that which is asked of Him. He says it over and over again throughout the Bible. I don't think it's reasonable to claim that point as allegorical.


John 14:12-14
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. 13 "Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
Matthew 21:21-22
21 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. 22 "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."
Luke 11:8-10
8 "I tell you, even though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will get up and give him as much as he needs. 9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.

Here are three examples where Jesus Himself said that God answers prayers if you ask Him to. I can list a dozen more. Are you saying that Jesus doesn't really make this claim? That his multiple references to God answering prayers is entirely allegorical? I don't think the facts support that conclusion.


I think I have adequately supported the first part of my position: Jesus says God answers prayers.

If we are going to look at what Jesus says about prayer with the purpose of supporting a position, let us be more complete.


John 14:12-14. Whatever you ask….that I will do. It would appear that asking is a necessary condition for prayer, but is it sufficient? No. If you ask Me….I will do it. Again asking would appear to be a necessary condition but is it sufficient? No. It is not a guarantee and the proof of that is self contained in the reference. The key phrase is “in My Name”. What is the meaning of in My Name? Many Protestant groups tack the phrase “In Jesus Name” on the end of their prayers but does this mean this phrase is sufficient to obtain the answer desired? Simply put that is a model for pagan prayer IF we believe that because we do X God does Y. So your argument may hold against pagans, but not against the God of ancient Christianity.

Matthew 21:21-22. Sounds sensational and taken by itself may support your position. However, in the experience of the Church, mountains have moved for certain saints. Whether or not you choose to believe the story. However, it is not my intention to tangentially attempt to prove such things. Simply put I believe them. You don’t that is fine with me for again my point will be why did or would the mountain move?

Finally Luke 11:8-10. Again taken by itself would appear to support your position but Christians should not read the Bible in isolation and neither should anyone else. Unfortunately, in a landscape dominated by Sola Scriptura Christianity, cherry picking scriptures becomes the fruit.
However, Luke 11:8-10 is an excellent ending point for your references for it offers a springboard into my response.

First, let me say my response is not to prove you wrong, but to offer another possibility which is in the very least just as plausible, leaving two possibilities which will naturally divide a theist from an atheist.

In Luke 11:1 the disciples ask a key question. His answer is found in vs 2-4. So now, at the very least, one should agree that Prayer has a structure, method, and a mindset.

1 It happened that while Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray just as John also taught his disciples.”
2 And He said to them, “When you pray, say: ‘Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come.
3 ‘Give us each day our daily bread.
4 ‘And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.’ ”

Matthew 6:5-15 is a parallel passage to this where we are admonished to not use lots of words and flowery language. It also uses language that many who get involved in the faith vs works argument have to explain away, however it clearly states we are forgiven AS we forgive.

5 “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
6 “But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
7 “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.
8 “So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.
9 “Pray, then, in this way: ‘Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
10 ‘Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.
11 ‘Give us this day our daily bread.
12 ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]’
14 “For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 “But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

So let us not be seeking verses to support a position but rather seek to ascertain the meaning of the scriptures in their totality.

Returning to “in My Name”. I will assert that anyone thinking this means by appending “ in Jesus name” to their prayers guarantees the desired result is praying a Pagan prayer.
In my Name means “speaking as Christ”. In biblical times and throughout history, ambassadors or emissaries have spoke in the name of the King.In other words they are given a message to convey, a position to take etc and as long as they stay on message or adhere to a specific ideology then they are speaking in the King’s name. Who is Christ? Christ has 3 main biblical titles, although there are many others, but he is Prophet, Priest, and for this discussion King. When I speak in the King’s name I am to take his position.

What is Christ’s position? He came to suffer and die. Anyone who tells you that the becoming a Christian means the end of suffering is preaching a false gospel. Period. If you become a Christian, you should expect to suffer. Period.

Scripture provides 2 more excellent examples of how we are to pray by Jesus himself.


Matthew 26:39-44. Interesting in v 44, saying the same words. The Church provides wonderful textbooks of prayer.
Praying about his impending death.

39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”
40 And He *came to the disciples and *found them sleeping, and *said to Peter, “So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour?
41 “Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
42 He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, “My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done.”
43 Again He came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy.
44 And He left them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more.
45 Then He *came to the disciples and *said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.
46 “Get up, let us be going; behold, the one who betrays Me is at hand!”

John 17. Note vs 18 to support the emissary/ambassador language above although such language appears throughout the bible.

1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 “I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7 “Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
9 “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
11 “I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
The Disciples in the World
13 “But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
14 “I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 “I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
16 “They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 “Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
18 “As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 “For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
24 “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25 “O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;
26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
That we may be one. That means united in all things, of one will.

Now I think as far as your position and mine can agree in regards to these kids and the priests. Humanity is broken. This story reveals this brokenness in all its ugliness.

As an atheist, you do not have the luxury to blame a god. So I would probably be correct in assuming that this is as far as we can go. To find an answer to this brokenness and what can be done about it is where the atheist and theist must part ways.

You will never find proof of God by looking at everyone else.

Knowing God involves a relationship. I could pull up your profile, read every single post you have made and learn a lot about you but if i reached the conclusion that I knew you and began to tell others who you are. I would inevitably misrepresent you. Only by knowing you in person can I begin to know PaulF and even then you would offer constant correction and elaboration to me of who you really are that would challenge my assumptions.

I can't just read the Bible and know God. I may begin to know God. If my desire is to truly know God as much as humanly possible then I must be in a faith community, an ancient faith community that carries to this day the correct understanding of God as far as humanly possible while preserving the mystery of God. That is the normality of the true Christian life. Can there be exceptions? sure but that is like putting together furniture by throwing away the instructions and just winging it. It isn't usually the best idea. The Protestant Method is to read the instructions on their own and even then it probably isn't perfect on the first try. The ancient Christian way is to read the instruction manual in the presence of those who have put together the same piece of furniture multiple times and who know what works well and what doesn't and rely on them to keep us from error.

That is the Christian ideal. That is the path to the knowledge of God.

 

[T.Lex]

Edit: Catholic League is run by Bill Donohue. I understand his word on these subjects are not "official" by any means. He's said some pretty messed up things in the past.

Yeah, that organization is kinda like the Jewish Anti-Defamation League or the SPLC. They view themselves (IMO) as a righteous defender of The Cause, in whatever way they want to define "righteous," "defender" and "The Cause."

I believe they are well-intended. I do not believe they are particularly good at their role.

There are better, more... mature... entities associated with the Catholic church. Again, IMHO.

But, they feel like they are following their path, I assume.

 

[foszoe]

Finally got around to watching. Overall impressed with the message.

Some notes....He quotes Gregory of Nyssa. We know him as St Gregory of Nyssa. My Bishop is Gregory of Nyssa. The message against slavery is rooted in the understanding of the human being as the icon of God. If that is truly understood than no one would believe in Total Depravity.

He quotes David Bentley Hart. An Orthodox Christian.

The Amish message has its roots in Orthodox Christianity for that is precisely what is meant by producing Saints. For the one and only mission of the Church is to prepare you for your own death and what better way than to pursue sainthood even if we do not achieve it.

1st 3 Centuries...Christianity succeeded because of its message of communion with God. That is right. Real communion. Through drinking His Blood and consuming His body. Not fellowship as some modern translations do for the Greek, koinonia, because they need to water down the meaning of communion. The only watering down of communion should be the addition of warm water.

That is Orthodox Christianity. It still is.

I believe that this can be of benefit to the discussion. Full disclosure, I love Tim Keller.

[video=youtube;AkcouxJE6o4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkcouxJE6o4[/video]

 

[foszoe]

I don't plan to delve deeply into this one, but I think a case can be made on a societal level, religion has laid the foundation for morals and ethics. Especially Christianity and Western Culture.

The righteous "pagan" as I understand it deals more with individuals. Exceptions to the culture around them if you will.

Historian's video delves into this somewhat.

Christianity, and religion as a whole has no lock on morality. The issue of "the righteous pagan" specifically recognizes this.

As for "rooted in religion", that's very much a chicken and egg question, now isn't it? How exactly does one prove the original roots of, say, don't steal?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't plan to delve deeply into this one, but I think a case can be made on a societal level, religion has laid the foundation for morals and ethics. Especially Christianity and Western Culture.

You could equally argue that religion has been the driving force to gain compliance with the social norms the society believes are moral, not the originator. Remember that Christianity was used on both sides of the slavery debate in the US, for example. You'd be hard pressed to find a Christian today that believes their religion promotes slavery or that slavery is moral. Yet, historically that's not always been the case.