CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

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  • T.Lex

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    This is the thing I'm struggling with the most. How did they get moved without anyone up questioning. To me, a bad apple doesn't spoil the barrel, but when the barrel itself is rotten, you have to assume the apples inside are bad. This is what I can't get my head around. Why did the higher ups move the priest. I feel bad for the parishes that had these pervs forced on them, but the entire structure seems rotten.

    No, no, I didn't mean to imply that the lay people had any idea...

    Consider this a result of the recency effect; I just heard a small portion of the details on the radio during my drive in today. Other than that, I really didn't know any details. I'm still not sure I want to know any more.

    So, first, I think I've come across on INGO today as more aggro than usual. I don't think I actually am, but I'll apologize in advance if I'm coming across that way. I don't mean to be confrontational today. Well, no more than usual. ;)

    Of course, to the extent there was actual protection of pedophile/rapist priest so that they could continue their pedo/rapist activities, that's morally reprehensible (<-- understatement) and criminally sanctionable. Let's take that out of this conversation. That was rare, IMHO, if it happened at all.

    For some proportion, an example from a different context might be helpful. I know of a local coach for a prominent sport who is a complete jerk to his athletes. Like, emotional and even physical abuse. To the extent of even threatened litigation that was resolved confidentially. Even with that, it is commonly known that the guy is a complete d-bag. But, he tends to win. He "voluntarily" left one school, took a year or so off, then was hired by another school. When the rumors started that he was being hired, some people familiar with the situation expressed concerns, which were left unheeded. "Second chances," "not so bad," "just strong willed." We'll see what happens in the long run, because so far there haven't been an issues (that I know of).

    Some obvious differences there - like at least some in the larger community know about this guy. But, because of relationships and a desire to "do the right thing" for the guy, certain decisions were made.

    Please don't read this as a defense - I don't intend it that way. It is an explanation for how some well-intentioned people can get drawn into doing things that later seem like REALLY bad judgment.
     

    Dead Duck

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    Are you guys actually arguing which religion should or shouldn't hide their pedophiles??

    I don't care who it is, if I were to catch anyone boinking a little person, I will kill them.... twice. It doesn't matter who they are or where they came from, anybody who touches little humans beings like this should not get away with it. I don't know why the churches have been protecting these monsters but it will stop... now. Having the urge to molest anything is NOT NORMAL FOR ANYBODY. Especially someone in power.... over kids and their parents. Praying that someone will get better will not work for sickos..... in any religion.... in any world.

    If I walked into the confessional and told the priest that I molested little boys, would he just send me to another church? Hell no, he's going to turn my ass in, as he should. You can't fix this in people and people don't change without something major happening to them....like death.

    The Catholic congregations had better wake up and stop ignoring this type of activity and realize that THEY have the power to change things. Stop waiting for the church to tell you what to do. How many verses in the bible talk about "Blind Faith"? Grow a pair and do something.

    Being a priest doesn't give you a get out of jail free card.





    Quite frankly, you guys sound like you're having a tea party in the parlor while holding your pinky straight out. Really?
     

    T.Lex

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    Are you guys actually arguing which religion should or shouldn't hide their pedophiles??
    Ummmm no.


    If I walked into the confessional and told the priest that I molested little boys, would he just send me to another church? Hell no, he's going to turn my ass in, as he should.

    I have reason to believe that - at least in the Catholic tradition - confession doesn't work like that. But, that's not really germane to this issue, IMHO.

    The Catholic congregations had better wake up and stop ignoring this type of activity and realize that THEY have the power to change things. Stop waiting for the church to tell you what to do. How many verses in the bible talk about "Blind Faith"? Grow a pair and do something.

    Being a priest doesn't give you a get out of jail free card.

    No one, ESPECIALLY not in the Catholic congregation is saying that. The Pope isn't saying that.

    There has been and is a problem. As the Catholic congregation learns of problems, steps are taken to fix it. Even the most devout among us does not have a time machine. We can't fix past problems; we can work to console the victims and prevent further victims.
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    Are you guys actually arguing which religion should or shouldn't hide their pedophiles??

    I don't care who it is, if I were to catch anyone boinking a little person, I will kill them.... twice. It doesn't matter who they are or where they came from, anybody who touches little humans beings like this should not get away with it. I don't know why the churches have been protecting these monsters but it will stop... now. Having the urge to molest anything is NOT NORMAL FOR ANYBODY. Especially someone in power.... over kids and their parents. Praying that someone will get better will not work for sickos..... in any religion.... in any world.

    If I walked into the confessional and told the priest that I molested little boys, would he just send me to another church? Hell no, he's going to turn my ass in, as he should. You can't fix this in people and people don't change without something major happening to them....like death.

    The Catholic congregations had better wake up and stop ignoring this type of activity and realize that THEY have the power to change things. Stop waiting for the church to tell you what to do. How many verses in the bible talk about "Blind Faith"? Grow a pair and do something.

    Being a priest doesn't give you a get out of jail free card.





    Quite frankly, you guys sound like you're having a tea party in the parlor while holding your pinky straight out. Really?

    I don't think anyone is arguing which religion should or shouldn't hide their pedophiles. In fact, I would go even further: why are we lackadaisical about the sin that's going on in our churches? Pedophilia is the one that, for now, still seems to be the taboo-ist of the taboos. But there's equivocation about all sorts of other sins like divorce, abortion, homosexuality, porn, etc. going on in many of our congregations. Certainly not all congregations and I'm definitely not pronouncing myself as a paragon of virtue, but until we renew our hatred of all sins, there's going to be ugly news coming out of our churches.
     

    CampingJosh

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    Are you guys actually arguing which religion should or shouldn't hide their pedophiles??

    I don't know how you got that from what has been said. Nobody has advocated for hiding pedophiles. The closest that has been said was that people who don't know about a problem can't be expected to do anything about it.
     

    foszoe

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    The problem with a hierarchy is that it can result in a coverup. The strength of a hierarchy is that it can also result in a lifetime punishment.

    T Lex could perhaps elaborate on how the controls the Latins are put in place work.

    I know in my monthly Church newsletter and it is similar across Orthodoxy, I can read the names of all priests that are defrocked, retired, assigned, reassigned etc.

    I know of no such organized effort among Protestantism to provide a similar knowledge. If any Protestants posting here know of such a website or other dissemination of such info, I would be pleased to hear of it.

    It is exactly this character of Protestantism that makes sexual abuse by their clergy so hard to root out or even study. And from what I know its a sorely neglected area. At least the Catholic Church has started funding research into the problem. Protestantism is so fractured, I doubt the various groups would even pool resources to do such studies.

    Let's put this notion that its a "priest" problem aside.

    Here are several citations. I can provide more if needed.

    http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-act...nd-Deacons-in-the-United-States-1950-2002.pdf


    https://www.baylor.edu/clergysexualmisconduct/index.php?id=67406


    https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/13/us/abuse-by-clergy-is-not-just-a-catholic-problem.html

    The Statistics - Gracefall

    From: https://nsuworks.nova.edu/cgi/viewc...&httpsredir=1&article=1095&context=cps_stuetd

    In a survey of 277 Southern Baptist ministers, Seat and his colleagues (Seat, et al.,1993) reported that 6.1% of pastors scored above the cutoff on a composite measure for
    sexual misconduct suggesting sexual impropriety. In the same sample, 5.8% of the pastors reported sexual contact with a member of their congregation, and 4.3% with a former member. There was no examination in this study of the age or gender of members with whom the pastors had sexual contact. Without more detailed data to compare, it appears that the rates of clergy perpetrated sexual misconduct among Catholic priests and Baptist ministers are similar despite the fact that the victim groups differ.

    http://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/9/1/27/pdf

    Although Protestant Christian congregations are both the most prevalent and frequently attendedof all religious institutions within the US (Pew Research Center: Religion and Public Life 2015), research on instances of child sexual abuse within these settings has been sparse. Some of the only estimates that exist are from faith-based insurance companies that have released data on claims paid for religious institutions. Specifically, three faith-based insurance companies that provide coverage for 165,500 churches—mostly Protestant Christian churches and 5500 other religious-oriented organizations—reported 7095 claims of alleged sexual abuse by clergy, church staff, congregation members, or volunteers between 1987 and 2007 (Seattle Post-Intelligencer 2007). This is an average of 260 claims of alleged sexual abuse per year, which resulted in $87.8 million in total claims being paid (Seattle Post-Intelligencer 2007). Although information on the extent and context of abuse is preliminary and limited, these previous statistics suggest to us the need for systematic research on child sexual abuse within US Protestant congregations. This study will provide a more comprehensive understanding of alleged child sexual abuse that occurs with Protestant Christian congregations, while also serving as a strong foundation for future research on this understudied topic.
     

    T.Lex

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    T Lex could perhaps elaborate on how the controls the Latins are put in place work.

    I know in my monthly Church newsletter and it is similar across Orthodoxy, I can read the names of all priests that are defrocked, retired, assigned, reassigned etc.

    Alas, I do not know of any similar resource. Trust has historically been placed in the bishops and church administration (and criminal justice system) to take care of these things.

    Yes, I know how hollow that sounds at this moment in time.
     

    foszoe

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    I read the Criterion on a regular basis but I never looked for such a section. That is where I would expect to find it.

    Alas, I do not know of any similar resource. Trust has historically been placed in the bishops and church administration (and criminal justice system) to take care of these things.

    Yes, I know how hollow that sounds at this moment in time.
     

    T.Lex

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    I read the Criterion on a regular basis but I never looked for such a section. That is where I would expect to find it.

    Well, if I'm being cynical, I would expect to find it on the front page of the local (secular) newspaper.

    I remember mentioning in the Christian thread that Catholics don't usually need to be excommunicated, because they'll drop out first. In my experience, it is the same with priests. I happen to know of a handful of former priests who voluntarily left the priesthood. I don't think I know of any who have been defrocked by the bishop 'involuntarily.' I think the sense is that those things are private matters.

    Yes, again, I know that doesn't offer any solace for the situation presented.
     

    JettaKnight

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    It is the same way it is done in Protestantism; leave and go to pastor another church. It's probably easier to hide in protestant circles because by definition there is no hierarchy. If the rate among protestants and catholics is equal to the rest of the population as studies suggest, then it follows that it is no less prevalent among protestant pastors.
    I don't agree it being easier to hide. I get the impression that there was a whole complicit hierarchy involved in this. Favors were called in; arms were twisted; people knew.


    The bible talks about various gifts distributed among believers.
    True, but that should never be used to lock someone into some role or lock someone out. Nor should ever be used as an excuse to avoid doing the Lord's Work.
    In the past, you have claimed to be a cessationist, if I remember correctly. This post reveals how this plays out in the rest of your theology.

    In general, I find it saddening that this is where modern Christianity is. No sense of wonder. A complete loss of mystery.

    Good memory.

    It's things like this situation that suck that right out of it.


    Nevertheless, there's still plenty of mystery - like why did God choose to call me his own?
     

    Ziggidy

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    It is the same way it is done in Protestantism; leave and go to pastor another church. It's probably easier to hide in protestant circles because by definition there is no hierarchy. If the rate among protestants and catholics is equal to the rest of the population as studies suggest, then it follows that it is no less prevalent among protestant pastors.

    Totally not true. There is a hierarchy within the Protestant church. My son is a pastor and I have many pastor friends, at various levels of leadership. If some one should mess up, there is a reporting protocol, which is strict. I would challenge the statement that it is easier to "hide" in a protestant church. I would actually say the catholic church has been extremely lenient with the crimes against children; to the point of suspect themselves.
     

    foszoe

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    I'll walk it back slightly and say its probably just as easy. With 9000 denominations of Protestant Christianity its hard to keep up. While I am sure some have reporting criteria. How many go above the local congregation level? How many report to a regional level? a national level? What is the strict reporting protocol? Is it documented somewhere for all to see? When were these protocol put in place?

    Protestants I know often take pride in the fact their church answers to no higher authority than the local congregation. Does yours? Your sons? Your pastor friends? What denominations are represented by you, your son, and pastor friends? I do like to know such things so I can keep my facts straight and hold you up as an example to others that I meet.

    These stories below illustrate my point, which is that this is a Catholic problem, only or mostly, and I take issue with those who say otherwise. It is an authority figure problem. There are plenty more stories out there.

    With protestantism, if it is 10 kids spread across 100 denominations, it simply won't get the news that 1000 kids abused by Catholics get, but the damage is similar, and that's not the right word but I don't know what is.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sex-offender-ordained-as-minister-pastor-says-hes-been-healed-by-jesus/

    The church's pastor, the Rev. Randy Meadows, ordained Hourigan during a service on Sept. 13. The self-described Pentecostal church, started by Meadows and a handful of other members six years ago, welcomes anyone "regardless of race, religion, culture (or) sexual orientation," according to its Web site. It also has a Sunday school for children.

    Meadows declined several requests from The Associated Press for an interview, but said in a brief phone conversation that the church has not experienced any backlash based on the decision to ordain a convicted pedophile.

    https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/...lauderdale-accused-of-molesting-child-9827948

    The revelations come at a sensitive moment for Calvary's national network of about 1,800 churches, which have been riven by legal infighting and dogged by claims that bad pastors have been allowed to run amok. In fact, at least eight pastors, staffers, and volunteers in Calvary Chapel's network around the United States have been charged with abusing children since 2010. In one case, victims claimed the church knowingly moved a pedophile to another city without warning parents.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-and-says-it-takes-two-to-tango-a6989001.html


    A church leader has defended his decision to hire a convicted paedophile - saying “it takes two to tango” and likening the crime to shoplifting.

    Thomas Hopper spent 10 years in prison for the rape and sodomy at knifepoint of a 13-year-old girl in the 1990s, and was arrested a number of times following his release the early 2000s.


    But Pastor Michael Orten, of Truth Apostolic Church, Madisonville, Kentucky, defended his decision to employ Hopper work as part of the church’s outreach staff.

    https://baptistnews.com/article/sbc-officials-reject-idea-of-sex-offender-database/#.W3zSsuhKhPZ

    INDIANAPOLIS (ABP) — Citing Baptists' “belief in the autonomy of each local church,” a Southern Baptist Convention official announced May 10 that the denomination's Executive Committee would not support the creation of a database of sexual offenders in SBC churches.

    “Southern Baptists believe that the local church in New Testament times was autonomous, and thus our local churches are autonomous,” Executive Committee President Morris Chapman said in his address to messengers at the SBC annual meeting in Indianapolis.



    Totally not true. There is a hierarchy within the Protestant church. My son is a pastor and I have many pastor friends, at various levels of leadership. If some one should mess up, there is a reporting protocol, which is strict. I would challenge the statement that it is easier to "hide" in a protestant church. I would actually say the catholic church has been extremely lenient with the crimes against children; to the point of suspect themselves.
     
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    ArcadiaGP

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    u3spd18augh11.jpg


    c05vl28jdgh11.jpg
     

    Ziggidy

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    Protestants I know often take pride in the fact their church answers to no higher authority than the local congregation. Does yours? Your sons? Your pastor friends? What denominations are represented by you, your son, and pastor friends? I do like to know such things so I can keep my facts straight and hold you up as an example to others that I meet.


    With protestantism, if it is 10 kids spread across 100 denominations, it simply won't get the news that 1000 kids abused by Catholics get, but the damage is similar, and that's not the right word but I don't know what is.

    In my son's hierarchy, the actual hiring process is done via the church; most times with involvement from he district council. The church cannot just hire anyone. Once the clearing from the district, the local church has the freedom to proceed. The Church board would then select the next levels, and the church would vote. You have a district council and general council.......and further if needed. There are rules, regulation, laws that each church must abide by.

    In my time, I have heard of wrong decisions and the actions taken. On one occasion (and only one) the church body voted to break away from the hierarchy because they did not like the decision of the district to remove a pastor.

    As far as your analogy with numbers. The difficulty comes with the cover up. In general public, one is not reassigned, sent to some training camp or sent to the monastery (per se). In the real world, one is removed and if it was unlawful, the civil authorities take action, immediately. Like the catholic church, you have many many parishes or groups that do not follow the tradition of the catholic church, yet call themselves catholic.....just as individuals - the churches act and interpret what is right or wrong. Gay ministers, mortal sin, venial sin....some parishes as individuals "break away' from tradition, yet call themselves catholic. This same activity is seen within protestant organizations. Just as one may stereotype all catholics, they do the same with us; just as you have done.
     

    historian

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    I'll walk it back slightly and say its probably just as easy. With 9000 denominations of Protestant Christianity its hard to keep up. While I am sure some have reporting criteria. How many go above the local congregation level? How many report to a regional level? a national level? What is the strict reporting protocol? Is it documented somewhere for all to see? When were these protocol put in place?

    Protestants I know often take pride in the fact their church answers to no higher authority than the local congregation. Does yours? Your sons? Your pastor friends? What denominations are represented by you, your son, and pastor friends? I do like to know such things so I can keep my facts straight and hold you up as an example to others that I meet.

    These stories below illustrate my point, which is that this is a Catholic problem, only or mostly, and I take issue with those who say otherwise. It is an authority figure problem. There are plenty more stories out there.

    With protestantism, if it is 10 kids spread across 100 denominations, it simply won't get the news that 1000 kids abused by Catholics get, but the damage is similar, and that's not the right word but I don't know what is.

    The difference is that if one is fired by a local church, the pastor must go find another church looking for a pastor. There is no re-assignment. The Catholic hierarchy was playing a ball and cup game with these corrupt priests. There are problems in protestant churches, but the "cover-ups" only end at that church. If another church doesn't do its due diligence then that is on that new church and its congregation, not because a bishop slid a bad guy over.
     

    foszoe

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    Which really goes back to my original point. Whatever the mechanism involved, a hierarchy moving bad guys, which was the case in one of the protestant churches cited in those articles and the reason I cited that one specifically, or the lack of a hierarchy making it easy to move somewhere else and take leadership roles in a new church. That is why I am calling into question the labeling of hierarchy in general as a BAD thing. In this specific instance. Yes it seems there are problematic dioceses where on a regional level this behavior was tolerated. There are also several dioceses that, as far as we know, have not had a systemic problem. A hierarchy can also stop abuse, however that typically wouldn't make the news. Self reassignment is just as bad as a hierarchical reassignment.

    In general, the problem is not the mechanism. It's the fallen human condition. How can all Christians combat this so it isn't happening in their churches? Not that having priests and bishops isn't a defense or solution, nor is blaming a structure having priests and bishops correctly identifying the root of the problem.



    The difference is that if one is fired by a local church, the pastor must go find another church looking for a pastor. There is no re-assignment. The Catholic hierarchy was playing a ball and cup game with these corrupt priests. There are problems in protestant churches, but the "cover-ups" only end at that church. If another church doesn't do its due diligence then that is on that new church and its congregation, not because a bishop slid a bad guy over.
     

    Ziggidy

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    If the bishops, cardinals.....whomever, at any time reassign, hide, retire or in any way cover up a "criminal act", the person(s) who knew about it should charged with aiding and abetting a criminal act that is equal the actual crime committed. Not effective in near future or now, but actually retroactive for the last 25 years.

    I believe that would send a clear signal the church means business. But as it seems to me, the hierarchy is protecting their own (bishops and such) even at this time; I feel they are equally guilty of such crimes.

    When it comes to sin, alternative lifestyle - contrary to the teachings of Christ, the church needs to act quickly and swiftly. Address the situation privately, provide council and if necessary, eviction (removal from any position or involvement - fired) from the church. Being lukewarm, being inconsistent, being indecisive is equally harmful for the church.

    The church is way too wishy washy on many topics. Jesus Christ is being watered down and seemingly reflecting the world view of Jesus instead of holding on to His Word.

    One is either for Christ or is against Christ.....no in-between allowed.

    The church has to walk the walk......and talk the talk. Quit worrying about growing the church and focus on Jesus and His word, and create true disciples of Christ. You cannot reach the world when everyone has a different gospel.
     
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    JettaKnight

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    In general, the problem is not the mechanism. It's the fallen human condition. How can all Christians combat this so it isn't happening in their churches? Not that having priests and bishops isn't a defense or solution, nor is blaming a structure having priests and bishops correctly identifying the root of the problem.
    I think this should be the last word on the subject.
     
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