CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[T.Lex]

If one accepts that God is omnipotent (and omniscient), then any man *can* be part of His work.

Free will suggests, though, that an ungodly man will not divine his role in His plan, thus not working in furtherance of it.

I think a more accurate formulation would be that good and evil exist in this world and God knows that. When evil happens, God's work is in helping people see how to come closer to Him.

In that sense, an ungodly man doing ungodly things can still be used to show people the path to - and benefits of - God.

 

[BugI02]

What of Patton or MacArthur, Wellington or Washington. I'm wondering if God sometimes uses men who are not 'His' to accomplish His ends. I accept it's rather arrogant to presume I know what outcome God preferred in those, and many other, events

 

[T.Lex]

What of Patton or MacArthur, Wellington or Washington. I'm wondering if God sometimes uses men who are not 'His' to accomplish His ends. I accept it's rather arrogant to presume I know what outcome God preferred in those, and many other, events

His ends are inscrutable to us. Or at least, have been for a couple thousand years now.

IMHO He knows all permutations of the multiverse. His goal is to bring as many people to know Him as possible. I do not believe He causes the bad things to happen. He has given us instructions about how to deal with bad things. It is up to us.

He rarely steps in to stop the bad things that we choose. But that's not the same as causing them.

 

[foszoe]

Pharaoh and Moses come immediately to mind, Plagues and Passover. There are also other kings in the Bible where it is stated that they are doing the Will of God, nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonian captivity kings? Balaam.

I can get references later if you wish unless someone else here can provide them from memory.

Thought about a new thread, but somehow this seems more appropriate. I seek diverse opinions. The circumstances under which I asked this question initially may have caused it to receive short (or curtailed) shrift

Can only a godly man do God's work?

 

[JettaKnight]

Thought about a new thread, but somehow this seems more appropriate. I seek diverse opinions. The circumstances under which I asked this question initially may have caused it to receive short (or curtailed) shrift

Can only a godly man do God's work?

The two terms need defining... well, I think we can agree that "godly man" refers to a man or woman who is a Christian, yes? What about Jews? (think modern day Israel)

What is God's work, though?

Was Judas Iscariot doing God's Work? Pharaoh? What about Isaac? How Godly was it when he stole the birthright? What about Nero? The church did flourish rightly under persecution.


As to evil, well, either God allows evil to exist, and dare I say thrive at times, or he's impotent.

 

[T.Lex]

Uh... is this the wrong time to offer up that I don't think a "godly" man need be Christian, Jewish, or a man?

 

[JettaKnight]

Uh... is this the wrong time to offer up that I don't think a "godly" man need be Christian, Jewish, or a man?

Nope.

It just goes to show nebulous this can be. We can't even begin to pin down the meaning of the words in the question.


In other words, Bug, the answer is, "it depends".

 

[foszoe]

I'll have you chrismated yet one day ...

Nope.

It just goes to show nebulous this can be. We can't even begin to pin down the meaning of the words in the question.


In other words, Bug, the answer is, "it depends".

 

[T.Lex]

haha

Now who sounds like a lawyer?

I think the question of "godly" is different than the question of "who is saved."

 

[BugI02]

I'm thinking predominantly of recent history, because that's what I know best. Take Churchill, for example. Hardly what I would take for a godly man, but did he not do God's will in encouraging England in its darkest hour to stand fast and resist the dark?

And FDR, not high up on anybody's list of the godly; but what of his inclination - almost single-handedly - to once again become involved in Europes troubles and succor the British. It seems like they might have been doing God's work

I guess I'm wondering if the tool always is knowingly doing The Lord's work or is even aware enough to consent. Does God use men purely as tools to accomplish a purpose

As for evil, jetta; I think it is ingrained in the initial conditions. I think that is why it can only be defeated for all time when the world is remade. To destroy it is to destroy the world we know. I also don't think free will has much meaning if we aren't free to stray from the path and do ill. It's that space that the Adversary exists in. I don't comprehend why he has the role he does, all of the 'mythological' explanations seem too simplistic

 

[foszoe]

Let me go Sola Scriptura on you....I would never say a specific individual is doing God's will because that implies I know the workings of the divine will. However for those in scripture that are said to be doing so, I will take the scriptures at their word.

For Churchill and FDR I would simply say maybe.

I'm thinking predominantly of recent history, because that's what I know best. Take Churchill, for example. Hardly what I would take for a godly man, but did he not do God's will in encouraging England in its darkest hour to stand fast and resist the dark?

And FDR, not high up on anybody's list of the godly; but what of his inclination - almost single-handedly - to once again become involved in Europes troubles and succor the British. It seems like they might have been doing God's work

I guess I'm wondering if the tool always is knowingly doing The Lord's work or is even aware enough to consent. Does God use men purely as tools to accomplish a purpose

As for evil, jetta; I think it is ingrained in the initial conditions. I think that is why it can only be defeated for all time when the world is remade. To destroy it is to destroy the world we know. I also don't think free will has much meaning if we aren't free to stray from the path and do ill. It's that space that the Adversary exists in. I don't comprehend why he has the role he does, all of the 'mythological' explanations seem too simplistic

 

[BugI02]

I guess the thrust of the question I'm trying to convey is would we always know it if we were moved to do God's will? Might we not just be the equivalent of a hammer or chisel?

 

[T.Lex]

WWII and "godliness" is fraught with intellectual and theological traps. The ease with which evil is labeled, but then the concomitant desire to label the fight against it as "godly," is perhaps an oversimplification.

 

[BugI02]

What war isn't? What of Wellington

 

[T.Lex]

What war isn't? What of Wellington

What about him?

He was certainly successful in many areas.

 

[JettaKnight]

What war isn't?

The War against Christmas.

 

[PaulF]

The War against Christmas.

No. It’s only August. Did you lose your Atheist liturgical schedule?

The war against Christmas starts on all-saints day now.

 

[foszoe]

I'll go slightly theological from an Orthodox viewpoint.

God has foreknowledge of all actions of everyone, before all time. These actions are incorporated into God's plan for His creation. We trust that our actions are serving the Will of God and we confess to Him those actions of ours that we know are sins. The rest in in the hands of a merciful God who wants us all to be saved.

The blessed Jerome responds to such questions thusly: “Would you like to learn the reason for such changes? Here it is: God does not judge future deeds, but present ones, and does not condemn anyone by His foreknowledge, although He knows that a good man may subsequently change into an evil one; at the same time, by His mercy he places man in the situation which he deserves at the present time, and thus gives him strength, in the case of a fall, to return to the true path by means of repentance. Adam did not sin because God foresaw his sin, but the reason God foresaw it was because Adam was to sin on the basis of his free will.”

St. Ambrose says the same: “Adam did not sin because he received the commandment, nor did Judas sin because he was chosen to be an apostle, for God did not lay upon them the need: for one to transgress the commandment and for the other to become a traitor. Both of them, had they faithfully held on to their responsibilities, could have abstained from sin. Those of whom God knows that they will subsequently lead a virtuous life, are often evil in the beginning, while those of whom He knows that they will sin, are often initially good. You are presently standing, but beware lest you fall. The holy Apostle Peter fell – and you should be careful; Judas fell, in order to deter you from falling.”

No effort on our part can protect us without God’s help, however, God’s help without man’s will does not bring any benefit either. Pharoah did the will of God, but he hardened his heart.

For me, if I ever become certain I am doing God's will, I would immediately repent of such a notion and examine my certainty against Holy Tradition and confess it to my spiritual father then follow their guidance in the matter.

ANYONE who thinks he knows he is doing Gods will should test this knowledge against someone they hold in high esteem as a Christian.

I guess the thrust of the question I'm trying to convey is would we always know it if we were moved to do God's will? Might we not just be the equivalent of a hammer or chisel?

 

[BugI02]

I'll go slightly theological from an Orthodox viewpoint.

God has foreknowledge of all actions of everyone, before all time. These actions are incorporated into God's plan for His creation. We trust that our actions are serving the Will of God and we confess to Him those actions of ours that we know are sins. The rest in in the hands of a merciful God who wants us all to be saved.

The blessed Jerome responds to such questions thusly: “Would you like to learn the reason for such changes? Here it is: God does not judge future deeds, but present ones, and does not condemn anyone by His foreknowledge, although He knows that a good man may subsequently change into an evil one; at the same time, by His mercy he places man in the situation which he deserves at the present time, and thus gives him strength, in the case of a fall, to return to the true path by means of repentance. Adam did not sin because God foresaw his sin, but the reason God foresaw it was because Adam was to sin on the basis of his free will.”

St. Ambrose says the same: “Adam did not sin because he received the commandment, nor did Judas sin because he was chosen to be an apostle, for God did not lay upon them the need: for one to transgress the commandment and for the other to become a traitor. Both of them, had they faithfully held on to their responsibilities, could have abstained from sin. Those of whom God knows that they will subsequently lead a virtuous life, are often evil in the beginning, while those of whom He knows that they will sin, are often initially good. You are presently standing, but beware lest you fall. The holy Apostle Peter fell – and you should be careful; Judas fell, in order to deter you from falling.”

No effort on our part can protect us without God’s help, however, God’s help without man’s will does not bring any benefit either. Pharoah did the will of God, but he hardened his heart.

For me, if I ever become certain I am doing God's will, I would immediately repent of such a notion and examine my certainty against Holy Tradition and confess it to my spiritual father then follow their guidance in the matter.

ANYONE who thinks he knows he is doing Gods will should test this knowledge against someone they hold in high esteem as a Christian.

What makes you think I am not?

 

[BugI02]

What about him?

He was certainly successful in many areas.

I am musing on how "the man of the hour" always seems to be waiting in the wings in history's darkest times

I don't think it's a coincidence