CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[foszoe]

We have seen the true light! We have received the heavenly spirit! We have found the true faith! Worshipping the undivided Trinity who has saved us!

 

[JettaKnight]

There was some discussion about Baptist the other day.

Here's an illustration of just how different we can be: [trigger warning] Cheeseburger on me for whoever can watch more than one minute without violently convulsing.
[video=youtube;Joo4cy-wDAE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joo4cy-wDAE[/video]

Yes, they are part of the Southern Baptist Convention.

 

[foszoe]

There was some discussion about Baptist the other day.

Here's an illustration of just how different we can be: [trigger warning] Cheeseburger on me for whoever can watch more than one minute without violently convulsing.
[video=youtube;Joo4cy-wDAE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joo4cy-wDAE[/video]

Yes, they are part of the Southern Baptist Convention.

An Orthodox priest traveling in the US said when he visited churches it felt like it was a show and a lecture

 

[JettaKnight]

An Orthodox priest traveling in the US said when he visited churches it felt like it was a show and a lecture

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

Of course, the opposite impression could be a feeling of secret incantations and rituals.

 

[foszoe]

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

Of course, the opposite impression could be a feeling of secret incantations and rituals.

Ritual yes! Not quite so secret though as the service books are available.

We do however make it so hard to follow them...

If the tone of the week is x sing this.(There's 8 of them)

If the Saint of the day is a Monk, unmercenary, Virgin, female martyr, hierarch, etc turn to page x or you or z....

Or it it be during the nativity fast, the Lenten fast, the Apostles fast, the dormition fast, then sing this or that...

That it might as well be a secret

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

There was some discussion about Baptist the other day.

Here's an illustration of just how different we can be: [trigger warning] Cheeseburger on me for whoever can watch more than one minute without violently convulsing.
[video=youtube;Joo4cy-wDAE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joo4cy-wDAE[/video]

Yes, they are part of the Southern Baptist Convention.

I can't tell what the lyrics are in this song. Some of this modern "spiritual" music seems to be oriented towards man and his self-esteem instead of worshipping God and His saving grace---that's a problem. How ever someone wants to make a joyful noise--different strokes for different folks. This isn't my style for sure. Our church will do a mix of newer God worshipping music, along with the older hymns. I've noticed, when they do the older hymns, there is more participation by the congregation. The newer stuff is often times harder to sing along with.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

I don't know if I've shared this before but I am the worship leader at my church. I'm also the only deacon but that's another topic. Anyway, for me it is a constant internal struggle of what to sing at church. In my personal time I listen almost exclusively to contemporary Christian music. The Rend Collective, Bethel Music, I Am They, All Sons and Daughters, Needtobreathe, Steffany Gretzinger, Lauren Daigle, Ronnie Freeman, Hillsong United, David Crowder. I listen to a wide variety of styles. At church we do almost exclusively hymns. It's what I grew up on and it's what I know. I've really struggled lately with the direction of our music at church. There is a wide range of ages in our congregation. 70+ retired folks, 20 something newlyweds, and everything in between. Honestly I worry that people will get offended if we start to do some newer worship songs. I don't know. Maybe I'm just paranoid. I'm sure that most of the congregation would like it, but it's hard. Some of the newer songs are so good.

 

[rvb]

I don't know if I've shared this before but I am the worship leader at my church. I'm also the only deacon but that's another topic. Anyway, for me it is a constant internal struggle of what to sing at church. In my personal time I listen almost exclusively to contemporary Christian music. The Rend Collective, Bethel Music, I Am They, All Sons and Daughters, Needtobreathe, Steffany Gretzinger, Lauren Daigle, Ronnie Freeman, Hillsong United, David Crowder. I listen to a wide variety of styles. At church we do almost exclusively hymns. It's what I grew up on and it's what I know. I've really struggled lately with the direction of our music at church. There is a wide range of ages in our congregation. 70+ retired folks, 20 something newlyweds, and everything in between. Honestly I worry that people will get offended if we start to do some newer worship songs. I don't know. Maybe I'm just paranoid. I'm sure that most of the congregation would like it, but it's hard. Some of the newer songs are so good.

at some point in history, many of the "traditional" hymns would have been brand new, congregations looking around at each other as they struggled to sing along, some old folks spitting "heresy" while trying to learn "How Great Thou Art" (one of my favorites btw) ....

As much as church shouldn't be a "concert hall," if the music doesn't connect with people, if they are making a reluctant noise instead of a joyful noise, it's not the right style of music. Our church has two services, a "traditional" and a "contemporary" and the difference is the music. Sometimes we have combined services (summer and special events) and then they alternate (which I kind of like).

So many of the traditional hymns just can't hold my interest or inspire joy. Maybe because I've heard them so many times (and played them when I used to do piano at the church I grew up in). Maybe because I'm a metal head and so many traditional hymns get sung at half speed and feel like a funeral dirge... On the flip side, a lot of contemporary stuff is repetitive and/or better suited for radio listening than group participation...

I also don't think the music should all be about "MY" taste. This is especially important with keeping younger folks active. It's more important, IMO, that they feel it's also "their" place of worship so they keep coming, than to sing a song I like. I'd do hip hop if it inspired my kids in church... and I HATE hip hop!

Worship leader is a task destined to only please a minority. I try to regularly express my appreciation to ours. I'll express it to you, too, and say thanks !

-rvb

 

[hog slayer]

When I was a kid I used to wonder how King David actually sang those songs he wrote down. This was before I understood translations and languages. I used to try, though. It never worked. Largely because it's the wrong language and I couldn't make things rhyme and flow. I listened to the worship portion of the youtube attached. You old guys make me laugh. I know all those songs and my kids run around singing those in the house. The previous comments about churches dying and mega-churches all being crooked make a little more sense, now. I attended a small church east of Lafayette for a couple years with my folks. They had this pianist who was absolutely fantastic! She could play better than I've ever heard. My parents didn't like it, though. It was too upbeat for them. Man! She left a solid impression on a young man. I can still remember the way she could play hymns and circus music, too! I wondered at that time whether Jesus would appreciate her talent. I no longer wonder. She was gifted and used that for His praise. I attended Olive Branch in Pensacola Florida. I remember sitting in the upper deck and thinking the space covered in that church was so great that I would have to adjust for elevation if I was shooting a terrorist from corner to corner. There we were back to hymns and boy could that Dr. Preach! There were more people in that church on a Sunday morning than I had ever imagined before. I worked on set up and tear down teams while in Jacksonville NC for a fairly large church that worshipped in a High School auditorium. It was more like the music in the youtube above. Absolutely amazing talent in the band. Go ahead, put you a couple hundred Marines and their families in one worship service and see if that changes your opinion on what is being worshipped. I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't tell that congregation that you think they don't worship right. Travel overseas. We'll chat about another type of worship service once you set foot in a third world country.

ChristianPatriot, I just purchased a Selah CD that is a more contemporary rendering of traditional hymns. It isn't too fast, no drums and electric guitars that I recall. I'm truly enjoying it. I'll mail it to you if you'd like to give it a try on Sunday mornings.

 

[Woobie]

There was some discussion about Baptist the other day.

Here's an illustration of just how different we can be: [trigger warning] Cheeseburger on me for whoever can watch more than one minute without violently convulsing.
[video=youtube;Joo4cy-wDAE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joo4cy-wDAE[/video]

Yes, they are part of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Made it to 1:01. I really wanted a cheeseburger.


"I can do all things" "Nothing is impossible." Great. Now tell me what that means. Show your work using the Bible.

I hate 7/11 music. It's just an old trick to stir up emotion. It's empty of substance, reverence and usually spirituality.

 

[foszoe]

The instant I hear a musical instrument I know it's too modern for me.

 

[Woobie]

There are myriad ways to worship. There are depictions of worship in the Bible that will make a baptist cringe. There really isn't much prescribed or proscribed. But there are guidelines. Reverence, joy, focus on God, truth. I've seen that done a lot of ways, and done well.

Things that I see a lot: a major effort to stir up emotion, using the stage as an opportunity to audition, focus on entertainment.

Southern gospel is bad for this, so are a lot of other genres. It bleeds into "worship" services.

 

[Woobie]

An Orthodox priest traveling in the US said when he visited churches it felt like it was a show and a lecture

He's not wrong, in many cases.

 

[JettaKnight]

I'm not anti-modern when it comes to music as I run audio for a large on stage group - 7 vocals, piano, keyboard, multiple guitars and bass, drums, percussion, strings, woodwinds, brass... the whole nine yards. However, I am anti-gruff male singer with strained singing that makes him sound constipated so I don't listen to contemporary Christian music on my own. Plus, I eschew pop music in general...

And the phrase "sloppy wet kisses" should never be sung in any church anywhere. Yes, fellow Christians, that's what's replaced lyrics like, "Wonderful grace of Jesus, all sufficient for me".


I am bothered by the overwhelming banality of modern worship songs. Take for instance the classic, "It Is Well with My Soul" by Haratio Spafford vs. the modern reinterpretation "It Is Well" by Bethel Music.

You can find the lyrics for both, but the latter one has only a modicum of theology and repeats the lines "Through it all" and "It is well" an annoying number of times.

It's sad, because as an audio engineer I love sitting at the board for that song - the music team can really make that one sound great and if I turn up the bass, the hands in pews start rising. But through it all, (pun intended) it's rather hollow - it's more of a feeling and less knowing and ultimately my faith is based on knowing God (nod to J.I. Packer) and not based on feeling good while singing. If my take away from a church service is the same thing I get from a rock concert (minus the contact high), then what's point? In my mind I'm drawn more complex hymns that have theology, something I can sink my teeth into and provide me with guidance; something to provide a solid anchor in rough waters.


Think this trend is new? Think again. My favorite one to despise is "In The Garden" from 1912; horrible theology.

 

[JettaKnight]

The instant I hear a musical instrument I know it's too modern for me.

We typically have 12-18 instruments plus 7 vocalist.

Made it to 1:01. I really wanted a cheeseburger.

Then by-golly, you've earned it. When can we meet?

"I can do all things" "Nothing is impossible." Great. Now tell me what that means. Show your work using the Bible.

Stop asking hard questions and start swaying and feeling! Get those hands up!

 

[foszoe]

Two songs make me cry...well more than two bUT it is well with my soul and oh holy night. I hear those songs and I am sitting in the pews of the church i was raised in at an age where my feet don't hit the floor and my mom is singing the "special singing "

Sungai in a traditional style of course

 

[Woobie]

I'm not anti-modern when it comes to music as I run audio for a large on stage group - 7 vocals, piano, keyboard, multiple guitars and bass, drums, percussion, strings, woodwinds, brass... the whole nine yards. However, I am anti-gruff male singer with strained singing that makes him sound constipated so I don't listen to contemporary Christian music on my own. Plus, I eschew pop music in general...

And the phrase "sloppy wet kisses" should never be sung in any church anywhere. Yes, fellow Christians, that's what's replaced lyrics like, "Wonderful grace of Jesus, all sufficient for me".


I am bothered by the overwhelming banality of modern worship songs. Take for instance the classic, "It Is Well with My Soul" by Haratio Spafford vs. the modern reinterpretation "It Is Well" by Bethel Music.

You can find the lyrics for both, but the latter one has only a modicum of theology and repeats the lines "Through it all" and "It is well" an annoying number of times.

It's sad, because as an audio engineer I love sitting at the board for that song - the music team can really make that one sound great and if I turn up the bass, the hands in pews start rising. But through it all, (pun intended) it's rather hollow - it's more of a feeling and less knowing and ultimately my faith is based on knowing God (nod to J.I. Packer) and not based on feeling good while singing. If my take away from a church service is the same thing I get from a rock concert (minus the contact high), then what's point? In my mind I'm drawn more complex hymns that have theology, something I can sink my teeth into and provide me with guidance; something to provide a solid anchor in rough waters.


Think this trend is new? Think again. My favorite one to despise is "In The Garden" from 1912; horrible theology.

Agreed on all counts. And yeah, there is some weak theology in some older songs. I think the light stuff is one thing for the newborn babes, but you need to get into the meat as you grow up.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

I hate 7/11 music. It's just an old trick to stir up emotion. It's empty of substance, reverence and usually spirituality.

I don't know. Seems like I remember a verse in Revelation about singing around the throne of God. The same phrase for all eternity.

 

[churchmouse]

There was some discussion about Baptist the other day.

Here's an illustration of just how different we can be: [trigger warning] Cheeseburger on me for whoever can watch more than one minute without violently convulsing.
[video=youtube;Joo4cy-wDAE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joo4cy-wDAE[/video]

Yes, they are part of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Ugh.....I pushed it out to 1:56 and had to stop. That was not pleasant.

1 Burger please. With Cheese......and bacon.....

 

[JettaKnight]

Two songs make me cry...well more than two bUT it is well with my soul and oh holy night. I hear those songs and I am sitting in the pews of the church i was raised in at an age where my feet don't hit the floor and my mom is singing the "special singing "

Sungai in a traditional style of course

+1

Especially when you consider the historical context of both.*



ETA
* Oops, I was thinking of "Silent Night"