CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[Clay Pigeon]

Mankind will never be free from bias. It is inseparable from perspective. To argue otherwise implies a bias of its own.

Many explanations could be given for a decrease in church attendance. All of these explanations would be conveyed from a biased point of view.

Biased or not it makes no difference, people going to Sunday Services has been on a decline for decades and decades. Now I'm not saying they are not Christian, people just have found better things to do on Sundays.
Just look around at the membership where you worship, what's the average members age? 60? 65? 70? I sure it's up there.
It seems about every year or two in North Madison and Southern Grant County another Church closes and the building goes up for sale.
Heck even as big as Church of God is in Anderson it closed its North Church a few years ago from lack of attendance. It's hard to run a business when you can't pay the utilities.

 

[DragonGunner]

.
Actually James may have been a sodomite and a pedophile. He was not a translator he was the king and had authority to allow the translation without the usual repercussion of being burned at the stake.

Read the link about the translators.

Already knew all that and agree 100%.

 

[Woobie]

Biased or not it makes no difference, people going to Sunday Services has been on a decline for decades and decades. Now I'm not saying they are not Christian, people just have found better things to do on Sundays.
Just look around at the membership where you worship, what's the average members age? 60? 65? 70? I sure it's up there.
It seems about every year or two in North Madison and Southern Grant County another Church closes and the building goes up for sale.
Heck even as big as Church of God is in Anderson it closed its North Church a few years ago from lack of attendance. It's hard to run a business when you can't pay the utilities.

Well just don't be proclaiming the end of bias, it won't happen, unless you can make all people omniscient, or get rid of them.


And neither will Christ, nor His Church. The gates of Hell will not prevail against it. But I do believe what people think churches should look like, based upon what they are used to, will change.

 

[DragonGunner]

Well the post that started this included Catholics, Mega Churches, Mormoms, and Muslims.

I think we we can get rid of Mormons and Muslims pretty quickly. They are very clearly not Christian.

When I hear Mega Church, I think of Joel Osteen and the like preaching a prosperity gospel. They only preach the warm fuzzy stuff and tell everybody they'll be ok in order to fill the pews and drive up the offerings. Part of the gospel is helping people understand their complete hopelessness when compared to God's righteousness. You are a desperately wicked sinner without hope outside of Christ.

Dogma - A principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

I do not believe Catholicism teaches the principles of the Bible as laid down in Scripture. The Pope having authority over the whole church, infant baptism, baptism as part of salvation, anything other than scripture having authority. I see these things as contrary to the Bible. The Bible, cover to cover, is about Christ. It is full of sets of principles to live by. If you're not following the entirety of Christ's commandments, then I don't consider you Christians, but the term Christians is a man-made term so I guess it's meaning can be fluid. You could say my definition of Christian is off, and I'd be ok with that. Again, priority #1 is salvation. But the Bible isn't only about salvation, otherwise why would we have all the other commands? How we operate the church, authority in the home, prayer, baptism, all are important.

I was constantly what I feel under attack by co-workers that I worked with for a season as they were Grace college students, especially when they found out I attend a "holy roller" church. I found myself walking softly and carrying a big stick when it came to interactions….one day I met a new one and while working he asked me if I was a christian. I asked him in self defense mode what is a christian…? After a few silent minutes and no answer i said isn't a christian someone who is Christ like? He replied with a smile, yes! I said then I don't consider myself a christian…..but I'm trying everyday and hope to be one someday. We got along great after that and had he was a nice guy towards me. The definitions of christian must be established when talking as so many simply believe its someone who believes there is a Christ who is Lord…..the devil also believeth and trembleth.

 

[JettaKnight]

Do you not use the Hebrew Scriptures?

King James is difficult to dispute.

A bit about the King James translators.

Who were the translators of the King James Bible?

What? Actually, now in the 21st century, it's pretty easy to dispute the KJV for everyday use. With it's wooden language and the changes in vocabulary since then... there's about ten other translations I'd go to before that one.

And FTR, I know the huge impact the KJV had on the world.

 

[hog slayer]

Identifiers Of An Unbeliever

1 John Reference

1

Walks in darkness (sin), practices lawlessness

1 John 1:6–7; 3:3–4

2

Does not obey Christ’s commands (to love God and love other Christians)

1 John 2:4–6; 3:23–24; 5:1–3

3

Hates brothers (fellow Christians)

1 John 2:8–11; 3:14–17; 4:20–21

4

Loves the “world and the things of the world” (e.g., worldly pleasures and ideas as opposed to those of God)

1 John 2:15–16; 4:4–5; 5:4–5

5

Does not do the will of God

1 John 2:17; 5:14

6

Walks away from the faith, does not continue with Christ

1 John 2:18–19; 5:13

7

Does not confess Christ

1 John 2:21–24; 4:14–15

8

Does not abide in Christ

1 John 2:24–25; 4:13, 16

9

Does not practice righteousness

1 John 2:29; 3:7–10

10

Does not believe the testimony of God (i.e., His Word)

1 John 5:1, 10–12

 

[JettaKnight]

By basis I think this thread is doomed for the sake of being "all thing christianity" "religion" as it should be, should encompass all religions or points of view. It could be that there is truth in each religion and we need to all come together to figure out the facts. It could be that the splitting of human kind at the tower of babel, was not just in language but in religious views as well.

This is like looking at a diamond with many facets, but only saying one facet is the true face of the diamond.

I was think about another metaphor this morning - God's light passing through a stained glass image and each religion is a different colored sliver of light.

While both catchy, these metaphors are wrong and have nothing to back them up. To the contrary, Jesus spoke many, many times about him being the only way to heaven.


Solus Christus.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Well just don't be proclaiming the end of bias, it won't happen, unless you can make all people omniscient, or get rid of them.


And neither will Christ, nor His Church. The gates of Hell will not prevail against it. But I do believe what people think churches should look like, based upon what they are used to, will change.

I haven't interjected any of that, but I find it interesting that you feel you needed to put it out there.
The Church as we know it is a dying thing, very seldom is a big beautiful stone / brick Church built anymore. Now the norm is a metal building with a small brick front or a empty small business that's available along with renting a storefront in a old half empty mall because of cheap rent.
We can agree on Church's have and are changing, and it just doesn't look good that the numbers of Christians will soon return to Church.

 

[2A_Tom]

It seems that any educated person would be able to understand the simple language of the King James bible.

I don't see the New American Standard Shakespeare, the Living Chaucer or the New International Scott.

Amazing that the McGuffey Readers had all of these authors before the sixth grade. We have grade schoolers that have read the entire KJB and understand it just fine.

Also there is a major difference between a word for word translation and an interpretation and all of modern translations have been interpreted by sub par interpreters using the eclectic method of interpretation.

This was driven home to me when a preacher had different people on the congregation each read one verse in a long passage of scripture. I had a NASB and it was impossible to follow as each person read from a different "new translation". I knew that my friend had a NASB and was very surprised how different his read from mine. As it turned the copyright had run out so the Lockman Foundation had revised it completely in order to get a new copyright.

One of the main interpreters of the NIV is

Virginia Ramey Mollenkott, best known for her "God of the Breasts" interpretation of El Shaddai, spent her 44-year professional career teaching college level English literature and language, but developed specializations in feminist theology and lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender theology during the second half of that career.

 

[Woobie]

I haven't interjected any of that, but I find it interesting that you feel you needed to put it out there.
The Church as we know it is a dying thing, very seldom is a big beautiful stone / brick Church built anymore. Now the norm is a metal building with a small brick front or a empty small business that's available along with renting a storefront in a old half empty mall because of cheap rent.
We can agree on Church's have and are changing, and it just doesn't look good that the numbers of Christians will soon return to Church.

Guess I'm confused on the interjection comment.

I think it's funny you think we are talking about buildings and services.

 

[2A_Tom]

What I laughed about is that there is anything better to do than being privileged to enjoy fellowship with God and other believers.

 

[foszoe]

It seems that any educated person would be able to understand the simple language of the King James bible.

I don't see the New American Standard Shakespeare, the Living Chaucer or the New International Scott.

Amazing that the McGuffey Readers had all of these authors before the sixth grade. We have grade schoolers that have read the entire KJB and understand it just fine.

Also there is a major difference between a word for word translation and an interpretation and all of modern translations have been interpreted by sub par interpreters using the eclectic method of interpretation.

This was driven home to me when a preacher had different people on the congregation each read one verse in a long passage of scripture. I had a NASB and it was impossible to follow as each person read from a different "new translation". I knew that my friend had a NASB and was very surprised how different his read from mine. As it turned the copyright had run out so the Lockman Foundation had revised it completely in order to get a new copyright.

One of the main interpreters of the NIV is

Yes. The NASB was originally published in 1977. The 1995 updated edition compromised the version in my opinion. The 1977 is a very literal translation.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Guess I'm confused on the interjection comment.

I think it's funny you think we are talking about buildings and services.

I think it's funny that you believe that with Christian Churches closing at a rapid rate that would also mean that practicing Christians are also leaving the Church, at better than 1% per year.
And as far as having a building? It's tough to heat a tent in December in Indiana.

But for me that conversation is for another time.

 

[Woobie]

I think it's funny that you believe that with Christian Churches closing at a rapid rate that would also mean that practicing Christians are also leaving the Church, at better than 1% per year.
And as far as having a building? It's tough to heat a tent in December in Indiana.

But for me that conversation is for another time.

Ok, no clarification on the earlier comment.

Now you're really not making any sense. You quoted a statistic I didn't give and said it's funny I believe it.

 

[2A_Tom]

Well, I just finished the Pentateuch. I sure am glad there are few Judaizers left since even Jews are unable to keep the law.

On another subject, today id the 16th anniversary of home going of the greatest man I have ever personally known, Dr. Jack Frazier Hyles.

 

[JettaKnight]

It seems that any educated person would be able to understand the simple language of the King James bible.

The fact that I, a man who loves vocabulary, has to look up "Concupiscence" in order to read and comprehend Romans from the KJV, emphasizes how laughable you argument really is. We could go on ad nauseam about how language has progressed and changed since the final version of the KJV (or are you a 1611 guy?), but opening it up to any passage reveals this. Why should someone have to struggle to read God's Word?

I don't see the New American Standard Shakespeare, the Living Chaucer or the New International Scott.

Those were all written in English, the Bible was not therefore your argument is invalid. Want to go for Homer's Odyssey? The Annals of Tacitus? Those have been translated several times.

Also there is a major difference between a word for word translation and an interpretation and all of modern translations have been interpreted by sub par interpreters using the eclectic method of interpretation.

Many would argue that the NASB, RSV and ESB are more "word for word" than the KJV.

This was driven home to me when a preacher had different people on the congregation each read one verse in a long passage of scripture. I had a NASB and it was impossible to follow as each person read from a different "new translation". I knew that my friend had a NASB and was very surprised how different his read from mine. As it turned the copyright had run out so the Lockman Foundation had revised it completely in order to get a new copyright.

Did anyone read from the Greek? No? Then they're all inferior.

One of the main interpreters of the NIV is

I never mentioned the NIV.


In short, the KJV may be your preferred translation, and it a fine translation at that. But to tell anyone else that other translations are inferior is unintentionally dishonest given that there are so many good translations that don't have the problems that the KJV does (i.e. they have less problems).


There's tons of information out there on the intertoobz, but this one in particular has oodles of evidence (and seems to have been written in the 1990's given the style). "KJV Only" advocates refuted!

 

[ChristianPatriot]

No matter what translation you use, you should ALWAYS have a corresponding Greek and Hebrew concordance to reference back to. Even the best translations can't give the full picture in English of what is being said.

 

[T.Lex]

I thought of this thread during the readings this past Sunday.

Isaiah 58:7-10

If you remove from your midst
oppression, false accusation and malicious speech;
if you bestow your bread on the hungry
and satisfy the afflicted;
then light shall rise for you in the darkness,
and the gloom shall become for you like midday.

1 Cor 2:1-5

Particularly, "so that your faith will not rest on human wisdom, but on the power of God."

And the Gospel, Matthew 5:13-16, "...your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father."

 

[foszoe]

I thought of this thread during the readings this past Sunday.

Isaiah 58:7-10

If you remove from your midst
oppression, false accusation and malicious speech;
if you bestow your bread on the hungry
and satisfy the afflicted;
then light shall rise for you in the darkness,
and the gloom shall become for you like midday.

1 Cor 2:1-5

Particularly, "so that your faith will not rest on human wisdom, but on the power of God."

And the Gospel, Matthew 5:13-16, "...your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father."

Illumination
Now light shines forth from darkness
And now we see

We understand now
Exclaim! I see! knowledge comes!
Illumination

 

[ATM]

Illuminati?