CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[foszoe]

The nasb has many poor renderings. It says that Joseph was Jesus' father. In another place, I believe after Mark 7:20 it adds a parenthetical phrase about Jesus declaring all food clean.

Yeah. All translations have some issues. That's why Greek is the official Bible. Unfortunately most can't read Greek, I still need help. That's why there are translations.

 

[ATM]

By basis I think this thread is doomed for the sake of being "all thing christianity" "religion" as it should be, should encompass all religions or points of view. It could be that there is truth in each religion and we need to all come together to figure out the facts. It could be that the splitting of human kind at the tower of babel, was not just in language but in religious views as well.

This is like looking at a diamond with many facets, but only saying one facet is the true face of the diamond.

Non-Christian beliefs are welcome for discussion, even atheist beliefs, but they all tend to run out of truth pretty quickly compared to Jesus.

 

[2A_Tom]

Yeah. All translations have some issues. That's why Greek is the official Bible. Unfortunately most can't read Greek, I still need help. That's why there are translations.

Do you not use the Hebrew Scriptures?

King James is difficult to dispute.

A bit about the King James translators.

Who were the translators of the King James Bible?

 

[foszoe]

Do you not use the Hebrew Scriptures?

King James is difficult to dispute.

Use? I use English interpretations of it. I have zero knowledge of Hebrew other than it has no vowels

I agree with the Church though that the LXX is the authoritative text.

No matter how highly one regards the KJV, it is still a translation from a Masoretic canon and a Greek NT.

 

[ATM]

King James is difficult to dispute.

 

[2A_Tom]

Use? I use English interpretations of it. I have zero knowledge of Hebrew other than it has no vowels

I agree with the Church though that the LXX is the authoritative text.

No matter how highly one regards the KJV, it is still a translation from a Masoretic canon and a Greek NT.

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A translation from Greek to English is not acceptable, but a translation from Hebrew to Greek to English is?

On another subject, I never have agreed with any Church. I read the Bible and agree with God, sometimes reluctantly. (like when he told me to give ten percent of ALL of my increase to Him)
I attend an Independent Baptist Church because they agree with the Bible too.

 

[ashby koss]

Non-Christian beliefs are welcome for discussion, even atheist beliefs, but they all tend to run out of truth pretty quickly compared to Jesus.

I'm fairly sure they ALL run out of truth pretty quickly, regardless of jesus being involved.

But thank you for showing your bias.

 

[ATM]

I'm fairly sure they ALL run out of truth pretty quickly, regardless of jesus being involved.

But thank you for showing your bias.

Why would I hide my bias? Let it shine!

I'll bet my bias could clobber yours.

 

[2A_Tom]

We Christians make no bones about being biased toward Jesus.

BTW: He ain't my crutch, He's my gurney.

 

[foszoe]

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A translation from Greek to English is not acceptable, but a translation from Hebrew to Greek to English is?

You are using stronger language than I would. I could, with God's help, bring a receptive person to Christ with a consistent message using any translation.

What I am saying is that ANY translation forces the translators to make choices on what meaning to convey. What I would deny is that any translation contains the full meaning of the original text.

I would say the Hebrew text used as the basis for Western translations is newer than the LXX and the LXX was the OT OF the NT church.

 

[2A_Tom]

By the way ATM, You have made a statement about being un denominational a couple times.

Just for clarification Independent Fundamental Baptists are non denominational. We have NO hierarchy and no headquarters.

Each Church is totally stand alone and independently run by the congregation as closely to the New Testament model as humanly possible. Basically composed of Pastor (s) Deacons and congregation and run totally democratically with every member having one vote in orders of business.

Christian Patriot is a member of an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. His Church has no control over mine and mine has no control over his. We may fellowship together but are totally separate. I would guess that I would be more than comfortable attending his Church because any congregation that has the guts to hang that shingle out will be a Bible believing, preaching and practicing Church.

There ARE many Baptist denominations Southern, American and General to name a few that do have headquarters with some more some less control over member churches, but that is not biblical.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

I'm fairly sure they ALL run out of truth pretty quickly, regardless of jesus being involved.

But thank you for showing your bias.

The biased is on the road to the end in the United States, some folks need a crutch and some need a gurney while the rest of America is finding better ways to spend Sundays. All you have to do is look at all the empty up for sale church's in America. Some that need that crutch or gurney should maybe give up drinking the koolaid.

According to the Hartford Institute of Religion Research, more than 40 percent of Americans “say” they go to church weekly. As it turns out, however, less than 20 percent are actually in church. In other words, more than 80 percent of Americans are finding more fulfilling things to do on weekends.

 

[2A_Tom]

LOL

 

[Woobie]

Before replying in depth,

So you are agreeing that the authority to forgive sins was conveyed to those men present?

When Jesus says other things to his disciples do you also limit the audience scope to them alone? If not, what is your criteria for deciding when it does and when it doesn't?

I really should have said that better. I should have said "I would find it a lot easier, personally, to see that as confined to those present, than extended to those present and only unnamed future draft picks, if the power to forgive were actually given. Otherwise, it seems it would have to include all of Christs disciples."

I actually think there is a better way of looking at this, but I'm trying to understand your point of view. Sorry for the confusion, I shouldn't have typed in a hurry.

 

[DragonGunner]

Do you not use the Hebrew Scriptures?

King James is difficult to dispute.

A bit about the King James translators.

Who were the translators of the King James Bible?

I have a very old book from my Grandmother…believe the author names was Stowe…would have to dig it out to see for sure. But in the 1800's he set out to see if the KJV was accurate, after years of study and travel he found 1500 things that for lack of a better word, was not perfectly accurate BUT did not change the meaning of interpretation…its just that the English language is rather weak. So he concluded the KJV very accurate.

I once met a very young fresh out of college Weslyen Pastor…I had said I had seen in the scripture that David had not killed Goliath with the sling and stone, only that he prevailed over the giant with it, it was actually Goliaths own sword that David has takin and slew the giant with….if the giant was already dead he could not of slew him with the sword…..nothing to fight or argue about, I just found it interesting as I had not seen that. The guy came unglued I had used the KJV for reading. He told me…"King James was a homosexual and all of the KJV bible must be voided because of this….." WOW. I thought what are they teaching these young pastors in college these days…..yikes. He has long since gone, that church found another pastor soon after.

 

[Woobie]

The biased is on the road to the end in the United States, some folks need a crutch and some need a gurney while the rest of America is finding better ways to spend Sundays. All you have to do is look at all the empty up for sale church's in America. Some that need that crutch or gurney should maybe give up drinking the koolaid.

According to the Hartford Institute of Religion Research, more than 40 percent of Americans “say” they go to church weekly. As it turns out, however, less than 20 percent are actually in church. In other words, more than 80 percent of Americans are finding more fulfilling things to do on weekends.

Mankind will never be free from bias. It is inseparable from perspective. To argue otherwise implies a bias of its own.

Many explanations could be given for a decrease in church attendance. All of these explanations would be conveyed from a biased point of view.

 

[T.Lex]

@ChristianPatriot

Hey - I was thinking about this conversation the other day, and something occurred to me - your assertion was that you don't consider certain groups as "Christian" but we got sidetracked on dogmatic issues. Does dogma make one a Christian?

On the other hand, you seemed to recognize that non-"Christians" under your framework can still reach heaven. So now I'm confused about your definition of "Christian." Or, to put it another way, does the label lose meaning when it is a function of dogma or when the person may not even realize they are one.

Yeah, I may be overthinking this a bit, too.

 

[Woobie]

@ChristianPatriot

Hey - I was thinking about this conversation the other day, and something occurred to me - your assertion was that you don't consider certain groups as "Christian" but we got sidetracked on dogmatic issues. Does dogma make one a Christian?

On the other hand, you seemed to recognize that non-"Christians" under your framework can still reach heaven. So now I'm confused about your definition of "Christian." Or, to put it another way, does the label lose meaning when it is a function of dogma or when the person may not even realize they are one.

Yeah, I may be overthinking this a bit, too.

 

[2A_Tom]

I have a very old book from my Grandmother…believe the author names was Stowe…would have to dig it out to see for sure. But in the 1800's he set out to see if the KJV was accurate, after years of study and travel he found 1500 things that for lack of a better word, was not perfectly accurate BUT did not change the meaning of interpretation…its just that the English language is rather weak. So he concluded the KJV very accurate.

I once met a very young fresh out of college Weslyen Pastor…I had said I had seen in the scripture that David had not killed Goliath with the sling and stone, only that he prevailed over the giant with it, it was actually Goliaths own sword that David has takin and slew the giant with….if the giant was already dead he could not of slew him with the sword…..nothing to fight or argue about, I just found it interesting as I had not seen that. The guy came unglued I had used the KJV for reading. He told me…"King James was a homosexual and all of the KJV bible must be voided because of this….." WOW. I thought what are they teaching these young pastors in college these days…..yikes. He has long since gone, that church found another pastor soon after.

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Actually James may have been a sodomite and a pedophile. He was not a translator he was the king and had authority to allow the translation without the usual repercussion of being burned at the stake.

Read the link about the translators.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

@ChristianPatriot

Hey - I was thinking about this conversation the other day, and something occurred to me - your assertion was that you don't consider certain groups as "Christian" but we got sidetracked on dogmatic issues. Does dogma make one a Christian?

On the other hand, you seemed to recognize that non-"Christians" under your framework can still reach heaven. So now I'm confused about your definition of "Christian." Or, to put it another way, does the label lose meaning when it is a function of dogma or when the person may not even realize they are one.

Yeah, I may be overthinking this a bit, too.

Well the post that started this included Catholics, Mega Churches, Mormoms, and Muslims.

I think we we can get rid of Mormons and Muslims pretty quickly. They are very clearly not Christian.

When I hear Mega Church, I think of Joel Osteen and the like preaching a prosperity gospel. They only preach the warm fuzzy stuff and tell everybody they'll be ok in order to fill the pews and drive up the offerings. Part of the gospel is helping people understand their complete hopelessness when compared to God's righteousness. You are a desperately wicked sinner without hope outside of Christ.

Dogma - A principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

I do not believe Catholicism teaches the principles of the Bible as laid down in Scripture. The Pope having authority over the whole church, infant baptism, baptism as part of salvation, anything other than scripture having authority. I see these things as contrary to the Bible. The Bible, cover to cover, is about Christ. It is full of sets of principles to live by. If you're not following the entirety of Christ's commandments, then I don't consider you Christians, but the term Christians is a man-made term so I guess it's meaning can be fluid. You could say my definition of Christian is off, and I'd be ok with that. Again, priority #1 is salvation. But the Bible isn't only about salvation, otherwise why would we have all the other commands? How we operate the church, authority in the home, prayer, baptism, all are important.