CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[foszoe]

A copy and paste of his text response the other day

The doctrine of "Baptists" can be traced back to Christ, of course. If it couldn't be traced back to Him then what are we following? So yes the doctrine can be traced through different historical groups such as the Waldensians,etc. The doctrines of Christ are found in Scripture so if you have a church following those Biblical doctrines than that church is in the lineage of the first century church whether Baptist or not. The Trail of Blood is, for the most part, a historical account of those who died for the faith opposing the RCC back to Christ essentially, so yes there is a "trail of blood" but maybe the pamphlet itself has inconsistencies, not sure? But landmarkism does get into Baptist Bride stuff of which I do oppose.
So, yes there is a "trail of blood" back to Christ and New Testament martyrs...not 100% about the accuracy of the book though. And no landmarkism, by definition, is not Biblical. Does that answer it?

Yes it does. Thanks. Similar to Clouds response.

Sounds like the historical aspect of Landmark ism is acceptable but some doctrinal differences are present.

I know I am generalizing some but it allows me to see you more clearly.

You guys have it easy. The Lex is Roman Catholic and I am Orthodox so it's easier for you folks.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Yes it does. Thanks. Similar to Clouds response.

Sounds like the historical aspect of Landmark ism is acceptable but some doctrinal differences are present.

I know I am generalizing some but it allows me to see you more clearly.

You guys have it easy. The Lex is Roman Catholic and I am Orthodox so it's easier for you folks.

That does seem like a recurring issue. History is what it is. How it applies to us can vary widely person to person. The 2nd amendment seems like an easy example. It says what it says, can't change that. How it affects (effects? I always get that wrong) us seems to be debated a lot.

 

[foszoe]

Below is our homily for tomorrow. I didn't have the heart to tell him that he spelled Triodion wrong. Lent is coming!

Luke 18:10-14

This Sunday is the beginning of what the Orthodox Church calls the Triodian, the book that is used for the services leading up to and including the Great Fast. Why is it called the Triodian? It is called the Triodian because the canons for matins during this period are composed of three odes each.

Don't you love answers like that, which only raise more questions? What is a canon, what is matins, what is an ode?

Bear with me as I give a brief lesson in Orthodox liturgics (how we worship).

In one of Saint Paul' s letters he says, "encourage one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs". A canon is basically a long spiritual song or poem divided into nine parts consisting of odes or hymns interspersed with verses from the psalms. The service of matins is the morning service of the church that precedes the Divine Liturgy.

It is essentially praise directed to God that is chanted in an intentionally therapeutic manner based on ancient tones or melodies that have been handed down through the centuries and have their roots in Jewish chant.

For me, matins is often the most peaceful and soul healing 90 minutes of the week. It is a good time to just sit and be quiet and listen. It is also a good opportunity to come to confession.

So now that you know about canons, and matins, and odes, and that the Triodian is the the book the church uses during this season that includes canons with three odes in each of the nine sections, let's talk about the theme of the first week of the Triodian, the Publican and the Pharisee.

The Lord gives us this parable to illustrate the attitude with which we should approach coming to church and,really, living out our lives. The Pharisee, considered to be in the upper crust of spiritual society, prayed thus with himself, "God, I thank You that I am not like other men- extortioners, murderers, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector."

The tax collector, or publican, on the other hand, with extreme humility simply prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner."

The Lord concludes the parable by stating that "everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

The clearest way that we can practice this kind of humility is by participating in the sacrament of confession. The Christian life is primarily one of repentance and confession is the very heart of this life.

Most of us come from a Protestant background and by our upbringing come to adulthood with a negative view of the formal sacrament of confession. We have these thoughts, "It's a Roman Catholic thing." "I confess my sins directly to God, why should I confess to a priest." "Christ died for my sins, I don't need to deal with sins now that I am a Christian."

Here is the difficulty we face: we have given our lives to Christ, we accept Him as our Lord and Savior, we know how we ought to live, and yet, every day we break His commandments either in thought, or in word, or in deed.

In the Orthodox Church this dilemma is dealt with therapeutically in the sacrament of confession.
The sacrament is based on the Lord Jesus Christ's own authority to forgive sins and the manner in which He gave this authority to His apostles and their successors, the priests and bishops of the Orthodox Church.

In the healing of the paralytic recorded in the gospels, Jesus scandalized the religious elite by saying to the paralytic, "My son, your sins are forgiven." They knew that only God can forgive sins because ultimately, all sins are committed against God. Jesus then confirmed His authority by saying to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your pallet and walk."

Later, after His resurrection Jesus appeared to His disciples, breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit and then He made this astounding declaration, which I somehow overlooked during my Protestant upbringing,"if you forgive the sins of any they are forgiven them, if you retain the sins of any they are retained." John 20: 22-23

In the weeks to come I will be teaching in great detail about the sacrament of confession but for now I want to make this one important point: my children in Christ, regular confession joined with frequent communion is the primary means by which Christ heals us of our fallen and broken human nature in this life and prepares us for eternal life. Let us all commit ourselves to regular, thoughtful, and heartfelt participation in this great and holy sacrament of the Church.

 

[hog slayer]

I'd love to tell you that things are clearing up for me. Unfortunately, they're not. I get it, the importance of origins gives credibility and authority. So then, how do we explain our huge number of"Christian" denominations? You see, I've usually been ok with understanding that we all (may be too broad a stroke) follow Christ but each has made minor rules to demonstrate discipline in followership.

 

[foszoe]

"The Glorious History of the King James Bible"-David Cloud
"Forever Settled: A survey of the documents and history of the Bible"-Dr. Jack Moorman
"A More Sure Word: Which Bible Can You Trust?"- R.B. Ouellette
"The Faithful Baptist Witness"- Phil Stringer
"A History of The Baptists Volumes 1 and 2"-John T Christian
"History of Baptists"- G.H. Orchard

As with anything, none of them are perfect books (there's only one of those). I may also have some doctrinal differences with some of the authors, but nevertheless, good resources.

Read through most of Forever Settled, albeit rapidly. I would say the basic premise is to support the claim that the Greek Church was responsible for preserving the text which I would fully agree with.

There was a huge fight between the Schools of Antioch and Alexandria over several things.

We Orthodox don't expect perfection from our saints. I love the story of St Cyril of Alexandria saying that honoring St John Crysostom on the dipthyhs was worse than numbering Judah among the apostles: )

The Alexandria canon was much broader for the NT. Over 30 books, if I recall correctly while Antioch had only 22.

 

[2A_Tom]

We Baptists do require perfection in our saints. Or at least God does.

He offers Salvation which washes you with the blood of Jesus Christ and cloths the saint in Christ"s Righteousness it is easily attainable.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Foszoe do you believe priests literally have the authority to forgive sins? Or is it, like you said, a therapeutic session to get it all out there and not hold it in.

 

[foszoe]

Foszoe do you believe priests literally have the authority to forgive sins? Or is it, like you said, a therapeutic session to get it all out there and not hold it in.

I believe it's both and not either or

 

[foszoe]

We Baptists do require perfection in our saints. Or at least God does.

He offers Salvation which washes you with the blood of Jesus Christ and cloths the saint in Christ"s Righteousness it is easily attainable.

The context of what I meant was for one Saint to believe one thing and another Saint to disagree vehemently.

When did/do you achieve perfection?

 

[2A_Tom]

November 11, 1978 at 10:30 in the evening in a little Church on Fort Bragg Road in Fayetteville NC. I asked Christ for the gift of eternal life and accepted Him as my Saviour. He washed me in his blood and gave me a garment white as snow and I stand before God clothed in his righteousness and come boldly to the throne of grace.

 

[Woobie]

The context of what I meant was for one Saint to believe one thing and another Saint to disagree vehemently.

When did/do you achieve perfection?

No one but Christ will ever achieve perfection. But He imparts it to His children. The body is dust, both mortal and corruptible. But this mortal shall put on immortality. The spirit is life in Christ Jesus, but the carnal flesh is dead already.

 

[Woobie]

I believe it's both and not either or

How can a man forgive sin? The scribes and Pharisees would said no, but their fault lay in not recognizing the deity of Christ. I looked up every reference to the word forgive, and there is a pretty clear bifurcation between forgiving interpersonal trespasses and sin as a whole. Even if you forgive my slight to you, do I not still require forgiveness from God for the sin?

 

[2A_Tom]

Earlier there was some discussion of creeds and I stated that Baptists do not have creeds. This is true but we do have a system of teaching young children and new Christians the tenets of Baptist doctrine.

Earlier there was also a discussion of Hymns and it was mentioned that some were not sung in your (corporate your) Church. this is because many do not fit your doctrine.

My all time favorite is Redeemed. But you can not sing it ( again corporate you) because it contains no works. Another favorite is One Day,

I do however want to point out there is one doctrinal flaw in this hymn. The author mistakenly described sin as black, whereas the bible clearly says sin is red. This accounts for the fact that that the blood of Christ completely covers it and God only sees the righteousness of Christ when he looks at a believer. But I digress.

We start Out teaching our children songs like Jesus loves me, 1,2,3 Jesus loves me, ABCDEFG, Jesus died for you and me, and so many more that may only have a tint bit of doctrine (teaching) but become ingrained in their lives.

We don't have a Homily sent down from a hierarchical organization, but the Preacher (Pastor, Shepherd, Bishop, Elder) preached a sermon that God lays on his heart during his study. The children hear this, it goes into their subconscious and many accept Christ at a young age.

After Salvation a Saved person is encouraged (commanded in the Bible) to be Baptized as a public profession of the faith they have placed in Christ as their Saviour. Standing deep water, (a picture of the cross) they are immersed, (a picture of the burial of Christ) and brought up out of the water ( a picture of the Resurrection). Baptism is totally symbolic, it is a way of saying I have trusted Jesus and nothing else to Save me.

After Baptism a Saint is welcomed into full fellowship of the Church. When the Church has the Lords Supper they are free to receive the unleavened bread and unleavened wine.

I should have broken this up into more bite sized pieces sorry. I have been called a longwinded preacher before so...

I'll stop now.

 

[foszoe]

How can a man forgive sin? The scribes and Pharisees would said no, but their fault lay in not recognizing the deity of Christ. I looked up every reference to the word forgive, and there is a pretty clear bifurcation between forgiving interpersonal trespasses and sin as a whole. Even if you forgive my slight to you, do I not still require forgiveness from God for the sin?

John 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins 1have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” (NASB)

Orthodoxy takes Jesus at his word.

I find most Protestants, when they talk about Confession really don’t know what they are Protesting so I will lay out the order below, I cut out several prayers to keep it short and bolded some specific prayers. Then I include some prayers that make up part of my Daily Prayer Book.

Not just any man can be a Confessor. Not all Priests are confessors, This is a difference from the Latins, I believe. (TLex can chime in on that)

THE ORDER FOR MAKING A CONFESSOR

(Some Prayers omitted)

Bishop. Lord Jesus Christ our God, Who didst give to Peter, and to the other eleven Apostles, the apostolic and spiritual ministry; and didst command them to loose and to bind the offences of men; do Thou now make also this Thy servant N., called by me, and filled with all manner of grace, to be worthy of Thine apostolic and spiritual ministry, through our humbleness, and of loosing and binding the offences of sinners; for Thou art the giver of good things, &c.

Deacon. Wisdom; stand up; let us hear the holy Gospel.

Bishop. Peace be to all. The lection from the holy Gospel according to S. John.

Deacon. Let us attend. The Bishop reads the Gospel. (S. John 20:19–24.)

Then he saith; Our humbleness, by the grace of the all-holy and divine Spirit, promotes thee, the most pious N., Confessor, to the ministry of spiritual fatherhood, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.

THE ORDER OF CONFESSION

(Some Prayers omitted)

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the living God, Shepherd and Lamb, that takest away the sins of the world, Who didst forgive the debt to the two debtors, and didst give remission of her sins to the woman that was a sinner; forgive, O Lord, remit and pardon the sins, iniquities, and transgressions, voluntary and involuntary, done in knowledge and ignorance, in transgression and disobedience by these Thy servants.

(Same Prayers Omitted)

(More prayers)... Then he saith the fifty-first Psalm. …(More prayers)

The penitent saith; Lord, I have sinned; forgive me. God be merciful to me a sinner.

Priest. Let us make our supplications to the Lord. O God our Saviour, Which didst, by Nathan the Prophet, give remission to David, when he repented him of his own transgressions, and didst receive the prayer of penitence of Manasseh; do Thou, with Thy accustomed love to man, receive also Thy servant N., who repenteth him of transgressions that he hath committed; passing by all that he hath done, Thou Who remittest sins, and forgivest iniquities. For Thou hast said, O Lord; ‘Verily I will not the death of a sinner, but rather that he should be converted and live;’ and hast commanded us to forgive offences, until seventy times seven. For since Thy majesty is incomparable, and Thy mercy is measureless; if Thou wert extreme to mark iniquity, who should stand? For Thou art the God of penitents; and to Thee &c.

Then the penitent, bending his knees and bowing his hands, saith; Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, I confess to Thee all the secret and manifest sins of my heart and mind, which I have committed until this day. Wherefore I supplicate pardon from Thee the just and merciful Lord, and grace to sin no more.

Then the Confessor saith to him in a cheerful tone; Brother, that for which thou hast come to God and to me, be not ashamed thereof; for thou dost not confess to me, but to God before Whom thou standest.

[Here the older offices, and the Slavonic books, insert a list of the most shocking sins; but the modern Greek Euchology proceeds,]

Then the Confessor examines him as to all his sins; and after having made a minute enquiry, saith thus;

My spiritual child, who hast confessed to my humility, I, unworthy and a sinner, have no power to forgive sins upon earth, but only God; but on account of that God-spoken sentence which our Lord Jesus Christ uttered after His Resurrection to His Apostles, saying, Whose sins soever ye remit, and that which follows; we also trusting in that, say: All things that thou hast confessed to my least humility, and all that thou hast been prevented from confessing by ignorance or forgetfulness, of whatever sort it may be, God forgive thee, in the world that now is, and in that which is to come.

And he adds this prayer.

God, Which did by the Prophet Nathan forgive David when he confessed his sins, and Peter when he bitterly wept his denial, and the woman that was a sinner when she wept at His feet, and the publican, and the prodigal; He forgive thee, by me a sinner, all things, both in the world that now is, and in that which is to come: and set thee without condemnation before Him at His fearful judgment-seat. But concerning the crimes which thou hast told out to me, have not a single care; but depart in peace.”

From my Daily Prayers:

"O Heavenly King, O Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, who are in all places and fill all things, the treasury of good things and the giver of life: Come and abide in us, cleanse us from every stain, and save our souls, O Good One.

O Most Holy Trinity, have mercy on us. O Lord, cleanse us from our sins. O Master, pardon our transgressions. O Holy One, visit and heal our infirmities, for Your Name's sake.

Our Father, who are in heaven, hallowed be Your Name. Your Kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

O eternal God, King of all creation, who have kept me safe to attain to this hour, forgive me the sins which I have committed this day in thought, word, and deed. And cleanse, O Lord, my humble soul from every stain of flesh and spirit. Grant me, O Lord, to pass this night in peace, to rise from my bed, and to please Your Holy Name all the days of my life, and to vanquish the enemies, both corporeal and incorporeal, that contend against me. Deliver me, O Lord, from the vain thoughts that stain me, and from evil desires.

Save, O Lord, and have mercy upon my spiritual father (name) and by his holy prayers forgive me my transgressions.

O Angel of Christ, my holy Guardian, and protector of my soul and body, forgive me all which I have committed this day, and deliver me from every wickedness of my enemy, that I may not anger my God by any sin."

 

[Woobie]

So Christ breathed on those select few to give them the Holy Ghost, and charged them at that time. How do you both extend that responsibility to those who later receive the Holy Spirit, and restrict it to certain officers not mentioned at the same time?

I personally have no problem seeing that scripture as restricted to those present. There isn't even any evidence that Thomas was later included after he skipped out.

 

[foszoe]

So Christ breathed on those select few to give them the Holy Ghost, and charged them at that time. How do you both extend that responsibility to those who later receive the Holy Spirit, and restrict it to certain officers not mentioned at the same time?

I personally have no problem seeing that scripture as restricted to those present. There isn't even any evidence that Thomas was later included after he skipped out.

Before replying in depth,

So you are agreeing that the authority to forgive sins was conveyed to those men present?

When Jesus says other things to his disciples do you also limit the audience scope to them alone? If not, what is your criteria for deciding when it does and when it doesn't?

 

[ChristianPatriot]

First off let me say, I am probably the least qualified person to speak on the Greek language. All I can speak to is what I've been taught. Take that for what it's worth.

We, as do the Orthodox, also interpret the Bible literally, but doing that also means interpretting it with the correct grammar. As I understand it, the first verbs (whose soever sins ye remit; whose soever sins ye retain) are in the aorist tense and the second verbs (they are remitted; they are retained) are in the perfect tense. So in a more literal sense, the scripture is suggesting "Those sins who you forgive, have already been forgiven; those sins who you do not forgive, have not already been forgiven." The apostles were authorized to acknowledge forgiveness in accordance with what Jesus had already determined. Same as we are today. After someone is saved, we have the joy of telling them that their sins are forgiven. We can tell them that because that's what God said in His word. That's why we compare scripture with scripture. The WHOLE of the Bible talks about Jesus and God forgiving sins, ONE verse in John says the apostles can acknowledge it.

 

[foszoe]

First off let me say, I am probably the least qualified person to speak on the Greek language. All I can speak to is what I've been taught. Take that for what it's worth.

We, as do the Orthodox, also interpret the Bible literally, but doing that also means interpretting it with the correct grammar. As I understand it, the first verbs (whose soever sins ye remit; whose soever sins ye retain) are in the aorist tense and the second verbs (they are remitted; they are retained) are in the perfect tense. So in a more literal sense, the scripture is suggesting "Those sins who you forgive, have already been forgiven; those sins who you do not forgive, have not already been forgiven." The apostles were authorized to acknowledge forgiveness in accordance with what Jesus had already determined. Same as we are today. After someone is saved, we have the joy of telling them that their sins are forgiven. We can tell them that because that's what God said in His word. That's why we compare scripture with scripture. The WHOLE of the Bible talks about Jesus and God forgiving sins, ONE verse in John says the apostles can acknowledge it.

Before going into the Greek, you seem to tacitly acknowledge the opposite, if they don't forgive sins then God hasn't forgiven them. Is that what you meant to say?

Also if only one verse says something does it contradict other scripture?

I would put forth it only contradicts a certain interpretation of scripture.

The Orthodox interpretation does not contradict any scripture.

 

[ashby koss]

By basis I think this thread is doomed for the sake of being "all thing christianity" "religion" as it should be, should encompass all religions or points of view. It could be that there is truth in each religion and we need to all come together to figure out the facts. It could be that the splitting of human kind at the tower of babel, was not just in language but in religious views as well.

This is like looking at a diamond with many facets, but only saying one facet is the true face of the diamond.

 

[2A_Tom]

The nasb has many poor renderings. It says that Joseph was Jesus' father. In another place, I believe after Mark 7:20 it adds a parenthetical phrase about Jesus declaring all food clean.

Mark 7:20 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

[FONT=&quot]17 When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]18 And He *said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and [g]is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, [h]fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, [i]envy, slander, [j]pride and foolishness.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]23 All these evil things proceed from [/FONT]