CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[T.Lex]

From the pulpit, pretty much just the pastor (or "a pastor" in a larger church). Really, that guidance and instruction is their primary duty. Historian might argue that their secondary duty is to organize the potluck dinners. (Speaking of, where's he been?)

In classrooms, just a guy who's the teacher.

Got it. "Sermonologist" it is.

That's good, you should fortify yourself - because we're amassing our siege forces now in preparation to knock down the towers of grandeur and periphery that blocks believers from a true relationship with Christ. (And by "now" I mean for the last 500 years)

Ok, so funny you should mention that. At the risk of derailing the study of Romans (which I quite enjoy because it is as much a political message as religious), our physical church is undergoing significant remodeling. So, our chief priest (that sounds odd, I'm not sure what his real title is, but he's a really good priest) had a sermon about how our holy places should help us feel a connection to the divine, should be otherworldly in beauty and truth.

I do like the influence of architecture on how spaces make us feel - and the American Catholic church can be "out there" in some designs - so there was value to the discourse. I couldn't help but feel, though, that he was making the case that we should invade the new Orthodox church, though.

Ok, maybe not invade, but at least mimic.

 

[Woobie]

[/B]haha

Well, I'm not sure what would give offense or not. I thought some churches have people give the sermon who isn't necessarily the pastor.

But, to answer your question, this Catholic is pretty much that insulated at this point.




This is PURELY my own personal interest being revealed, but Romans really needs to be understood in terms of why it is being written differently for the multiple audiences, and also synthesized with the other epistles by understanding the different audiences. Not only the recipients, but the larger church of the time, and (assuming a common belief in the divine nature of biblical authorship) even for us.

The church in Rome was diverse and one of the main disagreements (as I recall) was whether the path to salvation was different for Jews and gentiles, because they had different starting points. There was a very real risk of a fatal schism because of the diversity of background.

Rome was the political center of the universe at the time, and that's whole different context for the letters.

Agreed. It also makes a difference because at the point of the writing of the letter, Paul hadn't been to Rome. I think he tended to be more specific in addressing certain issues in places where he had visited and helped nurture the growth of the church. The others sort of follow the vein of "hey, I haven't met you yet, though I would love to. Here's some things you need to know."

Of course the above is a very simplistic description.

 

[foszoe]

God made us to worship with all 5 senses not just with our minds.

That was lost 500 years ago in the West. Roman Catholics still have this in their DNA but in the US and in post Vatican II, the church buildings nor the services reflect that heritage from my experience.

 

[T.Lex]

Agreed. It also makes a difference because at the point of the writing of the letter, Paul hadn't been to Rome. I think he tended to be more specific in addressing certain issues in places where he had visited and helped nurture the growth of the church. The others sort of follow the vein of "hey, I haven't met you yet, though I would love to. Here's some things you need to know."

Of course the above is a very simplistic description.

Yeah, but I agree. With the other geographic churches, he'd have personal insight into what he already told them and what their foibles were. He didn't have that with the church(es) in Rome.

Then, too, the role of Phoebe and her perspective, being Corinthian (I think), are important.

 

[JettaKnight]

Ok, so funny you should mention that. At the risk of derailing the study of Romans (which I quite enjoy because it is as much a political message as religious), our physical church is undergoing significant remodeling. So, our chief priest (that sounds odd, I'm not sure what his real title is, but he's a really good priest) had a sermon about how our holy places should help us feel a connection to the divine, should be otherworldly in beauty and truth.

I do like the influence of architecture on how spaces make us feel - and the American Catholic church can be "out there" in some designs - so there was value to the discourse. I couldn't help but feel, though, that he was making the case that we should invade the new Orthodox church, though.

Ok, maybe not invade, but at least mimic.

I think we all can agree that the majority of modern church architecture is a cross between a warehouse and theatre - they suck.

Especially non-denominational protestants. Often those churches have stripped of any moniker connecting them with church culture and traditions and in an effort to be "seeker friendly" have taken on a name like "Life Gathering" or "The Front" or something else utterly banal and non-offensive. We need a flashy show with loud pop music o draw them in.

And Romans... Romans is hard to understand, so we can't study on Sunday mornings. No, we need a sermon series that's got a title and happy logos and ...

Ugh.

Nope. Sometimes you should be offended in church - you're a dirty, sinful, pussbag.


And God still loves you.

 

[T.Lex]

... non-denominational protestants....

This phrase cracks me up every time.

 

[Woobie]

I think we all can agree that the majority of modern church architecture is a cross between a warehouse and theatre - they suck.

Especially non-denominational protestants. Often those churches have stripped of any moniker connecting them with church culture and traditions and in an effort to be "seeker friendly" have taken on a name like "Life Gathering" or "The Front" or something else utterly banal and non-offensive. We need a flashy show with loud pop music o draw them in.

And Romans... Romans is hard to understand, so we can't study on Sunday mornings. No, we need a sermon series that's got a title and happy logos and ...

Ugh.

Nope. Sometimes you should be offended in church - you're a dirty, sinful, pussbag.


And God still loves you.

I agree with you, but something needs to be examined. The structure will ideally facilitate proper worship. You don't want to detract from that, certainly. However, the early church met in markets, homes, and even catacombs and synagogues. What traditions did they have? In fact the church at Colosse was cautioned:

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

Often, just as much as some churches err by concentrating on the aesthetics of the service, so others focus on the aesthetics of the structure. While the architect may have been worshipfully expressing himself, the building becomes a monument to our own wealth and piety, as vain as the tower at Babel. And instead of facilitating the Gospel message, they serve as a sink for resources that could be more wisely used.

Nice stained glass, when's the last time your missionaries' kids had proper dental care?

$20,000 in kitchen cabinets. When is the last time someone needy had a meal here?

That portrait of your pastor is beautiful. I wonder how many Bibles that could have purchased.

This stuff is straight out of the book of James.

 

[T.Lex]

Often, just as much as some churches err by concentrating on the aesthetics of the service, so others focus on the aesthetics of the structure. While the architect may have been worshipfully expressing himself, the building becomes a monument to our own wealth and piety, as vain as the tower at Babel. And instead of facilitating the Gospel message, they serve as a sink for resources that could be more wisely used.

Nice stained glass, when's the last time your missionaries' kids had proper dental care?

$20,000 in kitchen cabinets. When is the last time someone needy had a meal here?

That portrait of your pastor is beautiful. I wonder how many Bibles that could have purchased.

I know you weren't directing this at me, but since I brought it up, I want to respond. I think what you express is why our priest wanted to address the issue. Certainly, it is open for debate whether churches/cathedrals go too far towards indulgence (non-plenary). Our church is actually pretty stark, reflecting near-Vatican II design IMHO. ("Near" being relative.) And, he did address how some churches of the 20th century probably went too far toward austerity and reflecting the starkness of man's plight in the absence of God.

This isn't bragging, it is factual, in response to your rhetorical questions. For our parish, we operate one of the largest food pantries/medical outreach centers in central Indiana. Our parish sponsors a very poor parish/school in Haiti. As a parish, we assist in supporting our diocese and needy parishes across the country. We don't have portraits of our priests. (Although 1 hallway in the admin part of the church has nice 8x10 glossies of current and former priests.)

Not that we're complacent, just that there needed to be some improvements to the building that's getting a bit long in the tooth, so some upgrades to make it more churchy are going to be part of the plan.

 

[Woobie]

I know you weren't directing this at me, but since I brought it up, I want to respond. I think what you express is why our priest wanted to address the issue. Certainly, it is open for debate whether churches/cathedrals go too far towards indulgence (non-plenary). Our church is actually pretty stark, reflecting near-Vatican II design IMHO. ("Near" being relative.) And, he did address how some churches of the 20th century probably went too far toward austerity and reflecting the starkness of man's plight in the absence of God.

This isn't bragging, it is factual, in response to your rhetorical questions. For our parish, we operate one of the largest food pantries/medical outreach centers in central Indiana. Our parish sponsors a very poor parish/school in Haiti. As a parish, we assist in supporting our diocese and needy parishes across the country. We don't have portraits of our priests. (Although 1 hallway in the admin part of the church has nice 8x10 glossies of current and former priests.)

Not that we're complacent, just that there needed to be some improvements to the building that's getting a bit long in the tooth, so some upgrades to make it more churchy are going to be part of the plan.

I don't know if you want to file it under being a good steward, doing all things in decency and in order, or something else. But I think it is fitting to take care of the resources (building in this case) that God has entrusted to us. Also, it can be off-putting to walk into a building that is past the point of needing care. And no, I certainly wouldn't direct it at you. I have experienced these things in Baptist churches. I know it happens elsewhere as well.

 

[JettaKnight]

You make a excellent point, Woobie and I'm not against Churches that make do with what they have. The early church often met where they could, they didn't have the luxury we have. (e.g. money, tax free, freedom of congregating)

I'd rather worship in a facility that have some reminder of God's majesty and permanence and that has a cross front and center, than one that's trendy and hip.



It's real easy to spend $100,000 on lights and fog...

 

[historian]

(Speaking of, where's he been?)

Lurking. Also, some churches have "elders" who preach as well.

We are actually considering leaving our church (for a myriad of reasons), and one alternate we have identified is Calvinist. Ugh.

 

[JettaKnight]

Lurking. Also, some churches have "elders" who preach as well.

We are actually considering leaving our church (for a myriad of reasons), and one alternate we have identified is Calvinist. Ugh.

Well, you are pred...

Nah, that joke is getting stale.

 

[Woobie]

You make a excellent point, Woobie and I'm not against Churches that make do with what they have. The early church often met where they could, they didn't have the luxury we have. (e.g. money, tax free, freedom of congregating)

I'd rather worship in a facility that have some reminder of God's majesty and permanence and that has a cross front and center, than one that's trendy and hip.



It's real easy to spend $100,000 on lights and fog...

You mean you don't want to hear the pastor say "Isn't God cool?" as he flips his head to get his bangs out of his eyes?

In our effort to "connect", we removed reverence from worship. And I think you're right that the way a church presents itself, including in its building, has an affect on that.

 

[Woobie]

Lurking. Also, some churches have "elders" who preach as well.

We are actually considering leaving our church (for a myriad of reasons), and one alternate we have identified is Calvinist. Ugh.

When I was younger I learned a lot from your pastor, mostly from the way he dealt with me. He's a good man. But I understand needing to put your light on the right candlestick.

 

[historian]

When I was younger I learned a lot from your pastor, mostly from the way he dealt with me. He's a good man. But I understand needing to put your light on the right candlestick.

.
Our current one? Or the former one?

Pastor Glenn is awesome, but he stepped down about 5-6 years ago or so. Glenn is probably the smartest pastor I know.

 

[ATM]

Sermonological sermoneutics notwithstanding...

I am willing to offend anyone, any time.

 

[Woobie]

.
Our current one? Or the former one?

Pastor Glenn is awesome, but he stepped down about 5-6 years ago or so. Glenn is probably the smartest pastor I know.

My interaction with Pastor Glenn was limited. Pastor Bond was the youth pastor the last years that I was going to school there. I was long gone when he became the Pastor. But he taught me a lot in his first couple of years there. There were points of disagreement, but those were part of my growth as well.

 

[JettaKnight]

Sermonological sermoneutics notwithstanding...

I am willing to offend anyone, any time.

And that's why I like you.

Pastor Glenn is awesome, but he stepped down about 5-6 years ago or so. Glenn is probably the smartest pastor I know.

Hmm...

I pray for your guidance in your search.

 

[foszoe]

Lurking. Also, some churches have "elders" who preach as well.

We are actually considering leaving our church (for a myriad of reasons), and one alternate we have identified is Calvinist. Ugh.

Finding an Orthodox parish
Join
Stress free!

 

[T.Lex]

Finding an Orthodox parish
Join
Stress free!

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a rare exhibit of Orthodox haiku. Influenced from Greek minimalism before being adopted in the East (and we're talking FAAAAAR East), few people are aware of the true roots of such beautiful poetry.