CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[foszoe]

I'll have both, with a side of bacon. Thanks!





So, what is salvation?

https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/namesofjesus/jesus_the_savior

Can listen or read the transcript!

Listening is best.

 

[foszoe]

I'll have both, with a side of bacon. Thanks!





So, what is salvation?

Katatharsis, deification, theoria, nepsis, synergia, rinse, repeat

 

[ATM]

Katatharsis, deification, theoria, nepsis, synergia, rinse, repeat

It seems that we only begin to scratch the surface with all our words, our languages, our perceptions.

As it should be.

 

[2A_Tom]

Propitiation

 

[ATM]

Grace.

 

[2A_Tom]

Truth.

 

[ATM]

Truth.

Careful with that word, it makes people crazy.

Ask me how I know.

 

[2A_Tom]

Gate

 

[foszoe]

Salvation is so easy and simple....


It's a relationship!

A Framework Quote followed by several others from various backgrounds.

A Living Salvation


One response I get quite often when I discuss the sacramental life with my Protestant friends is, “Why are you so concerned with experiencing God? After all, a person’s salvation is not really based on the intensity of his relationship with God. Salvation was accomplished by Jesus on the Cross. His sacrifice justifies us. When you accept Him as your Savior, His righteousness is imputed to you. At that point, you’re saved. It’s the work of Christ on Calvary that will always be your salvation.

“None of that has anything to do with your experience of God. If you happen to have a really tender, loving relationship with God, well, that’s wonderful. It’s like the icing on the cake. But when it comes to salvation, experiencing God is not as critical a thing as you’re making it out to be.”
How well I know this version of the gospel. I lived it and preached it for forty years. But I came to see that my belief system had left me with an incorrect picture of what the Incarnation, life, death, and Resurrection of Jesus were all about. I discovered that just like everything else involving God, salvation is a dynamic, living, ongoing process.

Now, just like other Protestants, I used to see Christ’s Incarnation as the means for God to accomplish certain goals. These objectives are fundamentally legal in nature. The plan of salvation, I’d been taught, is driven by God’s need to maintain His holiness and justice, while providing merciful redemption for sinful man. Thus, Christ becomes man to teach us the good news of God’s love, and to suffer for man the punishment that God’s justice legally (in a divine sense) demands. By virtue of His death and Resurrection, a human being can, by faith, have his personal debt to God cancelled. This transaction allows God to graciously and justly accept that individual into His Kingdom.

To my great surprise, I discovered that the Apostles and the early Church did not understand the plan of salvation in this way. Oh, they certainly believed that human beings are guilty of betraying their Creator, and are deserving of eternal damnation. Of course, they believed that Jesus, in His sacrifice, brings pardon for us and mediates God’s merciful reconciliation.

But the early Christians did not see salvation as a legal transaction, full of complex questions about justification and sanctification. They perceived salvation in a simpler, more tangible, more vibrantly loving way. For them, to be saved is not to have a new legal status before God. For them, the truly joyous good news of the Gospel is that by joining His nature to mine in the Incarnation, Christ can now join my nature to His. Thus, my blessed Lord and I may literally become One in His Body, the Church.

To be saved, then, is to be drawn into union with God, into the life of the Divine. It is to transcend the vileness, emptiness, and living death of our sin-infected lives by becoming wondrously united with Jesus Christ. Right now, we can begin to experience a life so interwoven with Christ’s that eventually it will become difficult to distinguish between our two lives.

This was the glorious day-to-day experience that so empowered the first Christians. This is the relationship with God that St. Paul is describing when he writes that the life in each of us is not his own, but rather Christ’s (Galatians 2:20). It is what he has in mind when he declares that our lives are “hidden” within the Christ who is Himself “our life” (Colossians 3:3, 4). Such is the life that devoted Orthodox believers live today.
Salvation cannot be merely some prize that I attained through making a commitment to Christ at church camp twenty years ago. It is not a contract to which I can point and declare, “Hey, I’ve got my salvation!” Rather, it is the ongoing and living process of losing myself in the life of Christ in His Church. Unless I am willing to commit myself to that kind of vital experience with Him, I cannot effectively be His follower.
Jesus Himself vividly portrays this living salvation in His own parable of the vine and branches (John 15:1–6). He tells us that unless we are constantly abiding in Him in an intimate union, we will wither, die, and be lost from Him. From our Lord’s own teaching we learn that having an experiential connection with Him is not just the “icing” on a salvation that is first and foremost a legal declaration from God. The fact is, a living relationship with Him is our salvation.


So the understanding of the Apostles and the ancient Church is that receiving Christ means inviting Him to come to us, nourish us, and graciously save us by His continuous mercy and love. Redemption is Christ joining Himself to us, changing and sanctifying our flesh, heart, mind, and soul. Salvation is transformation.


Gallatin, M. (2002). Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells (pp. 81–83). Chesterton, IN: Ancient Faith Publishing.

One way to deny Jesus Christ is to fail to acknowledge that he is the master, the one who brings both salvation and destruction. Such a denial strikes at the very identity of Jesus in this epistle. It is a denial of the grace and work of Jesus that extends to believers for their justification and it is a rejection of Jesus’ ongoing sanctification that brings deeper relationship to God. Those who disregard both God’s grace and his authority cast doubt on the whole of the saving relationship


Reese, R. A. (2007). 2 Peter and Jude (p. 78). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

According to the Orthodox Church, salvation is not simply about checking off some box in order to guarantee ourselves salvation. It is all about a relationship with God and His Son and Spirit:


“If you love Me, keep My commandments.” … Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” (John 14:15, 22–23)




Guirguis, J. (2013). Ask for the Ancient Paths: Discovering What Church Is Meant to Be (pp. 39–40). Chesterton, IN: Ancient Faith Publishing.

PRAYER According to Saint John Damascene, “Prayer is the raising of one’s mind and heart to God or the requesting of good things from God” (De fide orthadoxa 3.24). Through prayer God invites each person to enter into a personal encounter with the Creator. God’s plan of salvation offers a reciprocal relationship between God and man, and prayer is integral to that reciprocity.
Prayer in Scripture encompasses the entire range of human emotions and expressions, from petitions and lamentations to meditations, benedictions, thanksgiving, praise, and adoration.


Hahn, S. (Ed.). (2009). In Catholic Bible Dictionary (p. 722). New York; London; Toronto; Sydney; Auckland: Doubleday.

By contrast, Scripture speaks of “knowing” God as the spiritual person’s ideal: namely, the fullness of a faith-relationship that brings salvation and eternal life and generates love, hope, obedience, and joy. (See, for example, Exod. 33:13; Jer. 31:34; Heb. 8:8–12; Dan. 11:32; John 17:3; Gal. 4:8–9; Eph. 1:17–19; 3:19; Phil. 3:8–11; 2 Tim. 1:12.)


Packer, J. I. (1993). Concise theology: a guide to historic Christian beliefs. Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House.

The goal of the first man always remains the same. Every man created “in the image” of God is called to become an “image” in Christ. “Let us transform into the image that which is in the image,” writes St Gregory the Theologian. Christ opened up the way to the realization of this goal. Indeed, the birth of the divine Logos and the dispensation of the incarnation are not exhausted by redemption, by deliverance from the consequences of Adam’s fault. The Lord redeemed man from slavery to sin, death and devil, but He also put into effect the work which had not been effected by Adam. He united him with God, granting him true “being” in God and raising him to a new creation. Christ accomplishes the salvation of man not only in a negative way, liberating him from the consequences of original sin, but also in a positive way, completing his iconic, prelapsarian “being.” His relationship with man is not only that of a healer. The salvation of man is something much wider than redemption; it coincides with deification.


Nellas, P. (1987). Deification in Christ: Orthodox Perspectives on the Nature of the Human Person. (C. Carras with C. Yannaras, Kallistos of Diokleia, Eds., N. Russell, Trans.) (5th ed., pp. 38–39). Crestwood, NY: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press.

This analogy is fitting because the false teachers in Jude’s audience are promoting people engaging in sexual acts as each person so desires, over and against God’s purposes. The false teachers may have been using the salvation of Christ to argue that for whatever sexual misconduct they engaged in, they could simply ask for forgiveness and be forgiven. This missed the point of Jesus’ salvation: Christ aims to restore people to proper relationship with God and one another.


Barry, J. D., Mailhot, J., Bomar, D., Ritzema, E., & Sinclair-Wolcott, C. (Eds.). (2014). DIY Bible Study. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

The children of the Church are not children of Hagar, of slavery to the Law, but children of Sarah; they are children of the freedom of God’s promises, of the loving relationship and communion with God (Gal 4:22–31). Salvation is an organic entry into the communion of saints, the body of the Church, “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord” (Eph 2:20–21)


Yannaras, C. (1984). The Freedom of Morality. (C. Carras with C. Yannaras, Kallistos of Diokleia, Eds., E. Briere, Trans.) (3rd ed., pp. 176–177). Crestwood, NY: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press.

On this track, Svetlov arrives at the mystery of the cross that is imbedded in love and makes no sense without God’s divine, forgiving, restoring, and vivifying love. Svetlov consistently refuses the idea of justification as a diminution and limitation of the true relationship between God and the human being.


Oravecz, J. M. (2014). God as Love: The Concept and Spiritual Aspects of Agapē in Modern Russian Religious Thought (p. 241). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

If the first half of the hymn refers to Christ as the supreme wisdom of God for the creation, the second half similarly presents Christ as the supreme Savior of all things. The second half may also have existed before Paul wrote Colossians. If the world came together through God’s wisdom, so in Christ all things also have come together and have become reconciled to God. The hymn powerfully brings out the close relationship between creation and salvation. As Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:17, our reconciliation to God makes us a “new creation.”


Schenck, K. (2009). God’s Plan Fulfilled: A Guide for Understanding the New Testament (p. 235). Indianapolis, IN: WPH.

As a comment on the quote below. In Biblical language knowing is not an intellectual concept. When Adam knew Eve or Abram Sarai it doesn't mean they had an mental construct about who the other person was. It meant the most intimate of physical relationship

By learning about Him, we realize He loves us. We discover He has a plan to remove the effects of sin; this plan is what the Bible calls salvation. We learn that this plan required God first to lovingly work with rebellious, disobedient people and then to show up as Jesus and die on the cross. When we accept His gift of salvation, we enter a relationship with God that allows us to know Him better. Both the Old and New Testaments describe salvation as knowing God. (Read Hos. 6:3; John 8:31–32.) Just as marriage helps a husband and wife to become better acquainted, salvation allows us to know God better than we did before. The more you know God, the more you understand how He wants you to live and the easier it becomes for you to obey. Such obedience brings contentment and freedom. When you come to the end of your life, you can look back without regret and look ahead without fear. As a believer, death brings you even closer to God.


Lennox, S. J. (2009). God’s Story Revealed: A Guide for Understanding the Old Testament (pp. 62–63). Indianapolis, IN: WPH.

The biblical doctrine of justification brings us, as we have seen, to the very heart of the Christian message of salvation, human beings in a right relationship with God


Eveson, P. H. (1996). The great exchange: Justification by faith alone—in the light of recent thought (p. 178). Leominster, UK: Day One Publications.

Maximus interweaves the above strands, showing how creation by the Word underscores the differentiation and unification of the logoi in the Logos, as well as the deep relationship between cosmology and the economy of salvation. “Creation by the Word thus implies to Maximus not only a positive evaluation of creation,” says Thunberg, “but the inclusion of the latter in a purpose of universal unification, on the basis of the Incarnation by grace of the Logos, in which all the [logoi] of things abide.” Through this perception of the world based on the Logos and logoi, Maximus highlights that God intended to create a world of differentiated creatures, that they are unified through their relationship to the Logos, and that created nature is dynamic or energetic on the basis of its relationship to the Creator.


Bingaman, B. (2012). Becoming a Spiritual World of God: The Theological Anthropology of Maximus the Confessor. In B. Bingaman & B. Nassif (Eds.), The Philokalia: A Classic Text of Orthodox Spirituality (p. 139). New York: Oxford University Press.

 

[JettaKnight]

David Suchet, who played Poroit in series air on Mystery!, was interviewed by Rick Steves on his radio show. He has a new series to air on PBS about the reformation. Mr. Suchet goes into length about his conversion after reading Romans. I look forward to watching the series now.

 

[2A_Tom]

Romans is the most succinct presentation of the Gospel in one book.

For clarification Gospel = good news.

The fact that Christ came to earth is good news, but how and what he made available to man is The Good News.

 

[hog slayer]

Anyone have experience with Samaritan ministries health share/ insurance plan?

 

[foszoe]

Romans is the most succinct presentation of the Gospel in one book.

For clarification Gospel = good news.

The fact that Christ came to earth is good news, but how and what he made available to man is The Good News.

Around this time of the year Orthodox Christians following the Lectionary are reading through James. When I do, it reminds me of how much Luther wanted to get rid of the book.

Although the reformers were unable to do so, they did eventually strip the old testament of several and were so effective many Christians today don't even know that it happened.

Romans is Paul's best exposition of the Gospel though. The danger for many Christian groups is they misunderstand it and end up relying on it for their sole teaching aid.

The Road through Romans or the Roman Road comes to mind.

 

[JettaKnight]

Romans is the most succinct presentation of the Gospel in one book.

For clarification Gospel = good news.

The fact that Christ came to earth is good news, but how and what he made available to man is The Good News.

After we finish up our current church sermon series on the Reformation, we'll be starting on Romans.

It will probably take about 18 months or more. I think Foszoe would go crazy - no special holidays, no scheduled feasts, no liturgical readings, no "this time of year, we read ...". Nope, every week it's Romans.

 

[T.Lex]

After we finish up our current church sermon series on the Reformation, we'll be starting on Romans.

It will probably take about 18 months or more. I think Foszoe would go crazy - no special holidays, no scheduled feasts, no liturgical readings, no "this time of year, we read ...". Nope, every week it's Romans.

That's actually pretty cool (but also what Bible study is for).

Does your... sermonist (? sorry, not sure what the right title is) go into the historical/political landscape of the various groups? I mean, the Romans themselves are pretty well known, but you know what I mean.

 

[JettaKnight]

Around this time of the year Orthodox Christians following the Lectionary are reading through James. When I do, it reminds me of how much Luther wanted to get rid of the book.

Yup. He also wanted to get rid of the Jews, but that's another topic. He certainly was human.

As to what I think you're referring to - the Deuterocanon, didn't even Jerome make note of their lesser status when he translated the Vulgate?

Although the reformers were unable to do so, they did eventually strip the old testament of several and were so effective many Christians today don't even know that it happened.

Romans is Paul's best exposition of the Gospel though. The danger for many Christian groups is they misunderstand it and end up relying on it for their sole teaching aid.

Romans, while great theology and soteriology, was directed primarily to the Romans and their situations. Theology can't exclude other scriptures.

In other words, YMMV.

The Road through Romans or the Roman Road comes to mind.

 

[JettaKnight]

That's actually pretty cool (but also what Bible study is for).

Does your... sermonist (? sorry, not sure what the right title is) go into the historical/political landscape of the various groups? I mean, the Romans themselves are pretty well known, but you know what I mean.

Seromonist? Seriously? Are you Catholics that insulated?

Pastor.

Romans doesn't required the same cultural hermaneutics as say, Corinthians requires (esp. given supposed two missing letters), but yes, the historical, cultural and religious state of the primary recipients is (and must be) presented to provide a complete understanding of the text.

 

[Woobie]

It's just that Romans, and Colossians have so much more of a general tone. Corinthians and Galatians have a lot of specifics addressed.

 

[T.Lex]

Seromonist? Seriously? Are you Catholics that insulated?

Pastor.

haha

Well, I'm not sure what would give offense or not. I thought some churches have people give the sermon who isn't necessarily the pastor.

But, to answer your question, this Catholic is pretty much that insulated at this point.

Romans doesn't required the same cultural hermaneutics as say, Corinthians requires (esp. given supposed two missing letters), but yes, the historical, cultural and religious state of the primary recipients is (and must be) presented to provide a complete understanding of the text.

It's just that Romans, and Colossians have so much more of a general tone. Corinthians and Galatians have a lot of specifics addressed.

This is PURELY my own personal interest being revealed, but Romans really needs to be understood in terms of why it is being written differently for the multiple audiences, and also synthesized with the other epistles by understanding the different audiences. Not only the recipients, but the larger church of the time, and (assuming a common belief in the divine nature of biblical authorship) even for us.

The church in Rome was diverse and one of the main disagreements (as I recall) was whether the path to salvation was different for Jews and gentiles, because they had different starting points. There was a very real risk of a fatal schism because of the diversity of background.

Rome was the political center of the universe at the time, and that's whole different context for the letters.

 

[JettaKnight]

Well, I'm not sure what would give offense or not. I thought some churches have people give the sermon who isn't necessarily the pastor.

From the pulpit, pretty much just the pastor (or "a pastor" in a larger church). Really, that guidance and instruction is their primary duty. Historian might argue that their secondary duty is to organize the potluck dinners. (Speaking of, where's he been?)

In classrooms, just a guy who's the teacher.

But, to answer your question, this Catholic is pretty much that insulated at this point.

That's good, you should fortify yourself - because we're amassing our siege forces now in preparation to knock down the towers of grandeur and periphery that blocks believers from a true relationship with Christ. (And by "now" I mean for the last 500 years)