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CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity
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Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified,
(Matthew 3: 16-17
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.)
Who spoke through the prophets;
(I Samuel 19: 20;
And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied.
Ezekiel 11: 5, 13
And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the LORD; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them.
Ye have multiplied your slain in this city, and ye have filled the streets thereof with the slain.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Your slain whom ye have laid in the midst of it, they are the flesh, and this city is the caldron: but I will bring you forth out of the midst of it.
Ye have feared the sword; and I will bring a sword upon you, saith the Lord GOD.
And I will bring you out of the midst thereof, and deliver you into the hands of strangers, and will execute judgments among you.
Ye shall fall by the sword; I will judge you in the border of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
This city shall not be your caldron, neither shall ye be the flesh in the midst thereof; but I will judge you in the border of Israel:
And ye shall know that I am the LORD: for ye have not walked in my statutes, neither executed my judgments, but have done after the manners of the heathen that are round about you.
And it came to pass, when I prophesied, that Pelatiah the son of Benaiah died. Then fell I down upon my face, and cried with a loud voice, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel?)
In one,
(Matthew 16: 18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.)
holy,
(I Peter 2: 5, 9
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:)
catholic
(Mark 16: 15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.)
and apostolic Church;
(Acts 2: 42;
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Ephesians 2: 19-22
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
(Ephesians 4: 5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,)
I expect the resurrection of the dead;
(John 11: 24;
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
I Cor. 15: 12-49
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.)
And the life of the age to come.
(Mark 10: 29-30
Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.)
Amen.
(Psalm 106:48
Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.)
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
(Matthew 3: 16-17
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.)
Who spoke through the prophets;
(I Samuel 19: 20;
And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied.
Ezekiel 11: 5, 13
And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the LORD; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them.
Ye have multiplied your slain in this city, and ye have filled the streets thereof with the slain.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Your slain whom ye have laid in the midst of it, they are the flesh, and this city is the caldron: but I will bring you forth out of the midst of it.
Ye have feared the sword; and I will bring a sword upon you, saith the Lord GOD.
And I will bring you out of the midst thereof, and deliver you into the hands of strangers, and will execute judgments among you.
Ye shall fall by the sword; I will judge you in the border of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
This city shall not be your caldron, neither shall ye be the flesh in the midst thereof; but I will judge you in the border of Israel:
And ye shall know that I am the LORD: for ye have not walked in my statutes, neither executed my judgments, but have done after the manners of the heathen that are round about you.
And it came to pass, when I prophesied, that Pelatiah the son of Benaiah died. Then fell I down upon my face, and cried with a loud voice, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel?)
In one,
(Matthew 16: 18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.)
holy,
(I Peter 2: 5, 9
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:)
catholic
(Mark 16: 15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.)
and apostolic Church;
(Acts 2: 42;
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Ephesians 2: 19-22
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
(Ephesians 4: 5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,)
I expect the resurrection of the dead;
(John 11: 24;
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
I Cor. 15: 12-49
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.)
And the life of the age to come.
(Mark 10: 29-30
Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.)
Amen.
(Psalm 106:48
Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.)
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Copies of letters were made and circulated and copied and circulated and copied and circulated. that is where the 4800 extant copied manuscripts of the TR and however many of the copied manuscripts that your Greek Bible came from.
That explains why there are some minor differences in some of the copies. It also shows why the majority text is necessary.
My main problem with modern interpretations is that the translators adopted an eclectic method of interpretation, whatever sounded good to them personally. the KJV ( which I personally refer to as the KJB) is a word for word translation, where the translators felt they needed to add a word for syntax purposes they Italicized the word. I apologize that when I copy and paste the italicization is often lost.
Not calling anyone out but this verse was posted earlier and is a good example. I do not know what version this is and I did not look to see who posted it
21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
There is not much difference here. There is somewhat of a difference here. Basically the same. This is where i find the major problem in this verst, there is a big difference in the meaning of these two phrases.
Actually, I do not see a big difference in the red parts.
"Wrought in God" is basically the same as "done in God's name" or "done in the sight of God." I actually see a bigger difference in the dark blue. "Lives by the truth" and "Doeth the truth" have different implications. The former is internal; the latter external.
I just wish there was someone who could post the Greek....
At the risk of pushing this conversation in a different direction, all this talk of "work-based" and salvation/sanctification and other things that I'd characterize as minutiae was incubating in my head. I kept comparing all the competing theories - and I include Catholicism in that, of course - and thinking about the nature of God. It helped me articulate something, based on my own observations of God in the natural world: I don't believe God to be the God of Technicalities.
It doesn't make sense that God would have a framework without exceptions, without surprising variables. First, as I've said upthread, and I think we can agree, He is all powerful. We, by whatever constructs we develop, cannot bind Him.
But even setting that notion aside, every natural "law" seems to have exceptions.
Mammals have live births. Except for the ones that don't.
Birds fly. Except for the ones that don't.
Newton's laws are universal. Except where they aren't.
Relativity scales up and down. Except where it doesn't.
Of course, these are human ideas trying to make sense of a complicated natural world. But, if we accept that these are all part of God's creation (which I think its safe to assume we do accept that), then surely that must be insight into the nature of God.
From Jesus' own lips, the law is simple, broad, and non-binary. First, love God with all your heart. Second, love your neighbor as your self. (Matt 22:36-40 since citations are so important now.) The former is purely internal - only God can know what is in someone's heart. The latter is external and can be observed to occur.
Anything more complicated than that is contrary to Jesus' teachings.
Where there are laws, it follows that there is judgment. And the corollary is true, too: where there is judgment there must be laws (or rules, or regulations, or ordinances, or some form of expressed order of things). That's the whole point. One cannot be judged without something to judge against. And, there's not point in having rules, if there is no judgment.
Jesus explained the primary laws. Those laws are what we will be judged by.
It doesn't make sense that God would have a framework without exceptions, without surprising variables. First, as I've said upthread, and I think we can agree, He is all powerful. We, by whatever constructs we develop, cannot bind Him.
But even setting that notion aside, every natural "law" seems to have exceptions.
Mammals have live births. Except for the ones that don't.
Birds fly. Except for the ones that don't.
Newton's laws are universal. Except where they aren't.
Relativity scales up and down. Except where it doesn't.
Of course, these are human ideas trying to make sense of a complicated natural world. But, if we accept that these are all part of God's creation (which I think its safe to assume we do accept that), then surely that must be insight into the nature of God.
From Jesus' own lips, the law is simple, broad, and non-binary. First, love God with all your heart. Second, love your neighbor as your self. (Matt 22:36-40 since citations are so important now.) The former is purely internal - only God can know what is in someone's heart. The latter is external and can be observed to occur.
Anything more complicated than that is contrary to Jesus' teachings.
Where there are laws, it follows that there is judgment. And the corollary is true, too: where there is judgment there must be laws (or rules, or regulations, or ordinances, or some form of expressed order of things). That's the whole point. One cannot be judged without something to judge against. And, there's not point in having rules, if there is no judgment.
Jesus explained the primary laws. Those laws are what we will be judged by.
Who came up with these laws? Who classified mammals? Who said what a is bird?
All of these are all of these are classifications and definitions that man created in an effort to make sense out a world that God created.
He also went on the give the sermon at the mount which makes a mockery of our laws. "Oh, you think you keep the law? Well I say that..." His point was to illustration how utterly feeble and pathetic our attempts at earning salvation are. No matter how much good deeds we do, no matter how many laws we keep, our sinful nature will betray us and reveal the true pieces of worthless pond scum that we are.
Judgement? Yes it will happen for ALL. As the list of sins are ticked off and the punishment of death is meted, The Sons steps in for those who love him, "No, I paid his price."
Say it with me, everyone, "There's no amount of good deeds or works that I can do to earn my salvation. Likewise, there's no sin so vile that can't be washed clean by the blood of Christ."
Once you understand that, then you can follow the primary laws you cite out of a deep love and divine guidance. You're now free from selfishness and able to live a life of righteousness. I think how many times just in the morning did I break those two little laws? But I can repent and do better with the knowledge that my sins have been and always will be forgiven. There's no scale that's weighing the good against the bad - that's only in Hollywood's perception of God. "You've been bad, but I'll send you back to earth to do one good thing so you can get into heaven..." Nope.
See, this is where tone is important.
There's no need for us all to say that together. That's simply a reminder of the First Law (my caps) from Jesus. A statement that the Second Law (my caps, again) does not overwhelm the first.
No one is saying that it does.
No one.
Well, at least, no one here.
Now I haz confuze.
I always saw the 1st and 2nd law (your terms) to be complimentary (and somewhat pedantic). Are you saying there's a possibility of conflict?
You started off with a discuss on exceptions to the rule, then went to these 2 laws, and ended up on judgement by laws.
I think I got lost.
Always keep your faith pointed in a safe direction.
Ah. Right.
Now I understand where I was easily misunderstood.
The first part of my post - which you quoted - was trying to establish that or human constructs are not absolute. Within that framework of "human constructs" is probably a whole lot of religious dogma. (Which is probably heresy on my part.)
My point about Jesus' 2-laws formulation is that the ultimate truth is pretty simple, but we complicate it. God is not interested in our technicalities. He is interested in our adherence to Jesus' teachings.
There is a primacy to the 2-laws. Love God is first. Can't get to salvation without that. I don't think there's room for controversy on that. (Of course, ATM is here, so who knows.)
But, that primacy does not make irrelevant the secondary law. Love of others.
Judgment (first/second/other) will be based on the faithfulness to those laws. Not on technicalities that may or may not have been created by men in a desire to support of those laws.
That's what I was getting at.
Ah. Right.
Now I understand where I was easily misunderstood.
The first part of my post - which you quoted - was trying to establish that or human constructs are not absolute. Within that framework of "human constructs" is probably a whole lot of religious dogma. (Which is probably heresy on my part.)
My point about Jesus' 2-laws formulation is that the ultimate truth is pretty simple, but we complicate it. God is not interested in our technicalities. He is interested in our adherence to Jesus' teachings.
There is a primacy to the 2-laws. Love God is first. Can't get to salvation without that. I don't think there's room for controversy on that. (Of course, ATM is here, so who knows.)
But, that primacy does not make irrelevant the secondary law. Love of others.
Judgment (first/second/other) will be based on the faithfulness to those laws. Not on technicalities that may or may not have been created by men in a desire to support of those laws.
That's what I was getting at.
Well, ok.
More, "OK - I'm trying to sort out some software on one screen, monitor INGO on the other, and recover from five days of tax law study, and I'm tired of debating salvation by works."Is it? Is it really ok?
I mean (and this is where my own rebellious leanings kick in), if it is that simple, why is it so complicated?
I'll be quiet now. It isn't a good day to be excommunicated.
2 Theological Approaches.
A Catholic, a Protestant, and an Orthodox walk into a bar.
The Bartender takes out a hand sized stone and sets it in front of them.
After a few moments, the Bartender says to the three of them:
"Describe this rock!"
After several hours of trying to reach consensus, The Protestant and the Catholic finally agree to:
The Dogma of the Rock is: The rock is solid, motionless, impermeable and lifeless, and composed of a solid, continuous single material. It is hard but may be carved or dressed for utilization. There is no motion within the stone, and if thrown, it will fall downward because the earth is its home, and all things tend toward their natural homes. Aristotle would say that it falls faster as it nears the surface of the earth, because as objects near their natural home, they move with more exuberance, being nearer home.
The Orthodox just looks at them sadly as he puts forward
The Dogma of the Rock is: The rock is a microcosm of the universe.
A Catholic, a Protestant, and an Orthodox walk into a bar.
The Bartender takes out a hand sized stone and sets it in front of them.
After a few moments, the Bartender says to the three of them:
"Describe this rock!"
After several hours of trying to reach consensus, The Protestant and the Catholic finally agree to:
The Dogma of the Rock is: The rock is solid, motionless, impermeable and lifeless, and composed of a solid, continuous single material. It is hard but may be carved or dressed for utilization. There is no motion within the stone, and if thrown, it will fall downward because the earth is its home, and all things tend toward their natural homes. Aristotle would say that it falls faster as it nears the surface of the earth, because as objects near their natural home, they move with more exuberance, being nearer home.
The Orthodox just looks at them sadly as he puts forward
The Dogma of the Rock is: The rock is a microcosm of the universe.
...There is a primacy to the 2-laws. Love God is first. Can't get to salvation without that. I don't think there's room for controversy on that. (Of course, ATM is here, so who knows.)
Since I'm here...
Salvation is not a destination, more of a designation.
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