.I said nothing about immediacy. Your assertion that heaven entry was a certainty did not have a temporal component, either. And, to be frank, I think both of us would agree that God's understanding of time is likely broader than our own.
Actually that was in response to fozoe who did say thet there was an immediate judgment and a follow up later. (not his exact wording, sorry)
Ah... do you want me to find the quotes about how works don't matter?
?
That really starts looking like we're saying the same thing.
So, this certainty comes from internal confidence of having accepted Christ. That internal choice and confidence, regardless of what works were performed previous to that or are performed after, means absolute entry into heaven.
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That's what it sounds like you are saying.
I am not saying it God said it,
As a followup, this notion of 2 judgments sounds a whole lot like Purgatory, only with a nicer setting.
Only if You think Hell is better than purgatory.
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CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity
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Again, that text does not support what you are saying. "These things I have written" - does that not mean ALL of the things? That ALL of the things written are important, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
For me, the entirety of the Bible must be harmonized to achieve as close as we can get to understanding. (Now, there are temporal shifts related to the covenants that changed the "rules" but I think we are all familiar with those items.)
You seem to ignore the parts - including Jesus' own words - that speak to actions. Until you don't. Your statements about a 2nd judgment suggest that there will, at some point, be a 2d judgment where works are judged. You said, "judged by their works."
I did not say I don't Know anything. I know that I am Saved and will spend eternity in heaven.
I said I don't know everything.
Shush as I do not know if you, Fozoe or for that matter if anyone else is saved. You yourself may be Saved and not Know it. My own mother who died many years ago, lived as a Roman Catholic until her death. She confessed Christ as her Saviour and avowed she was not trusting the Church, sacraments, good works or anything beside Jesus Christ and his Sacrifice for her Salvation. I believe she is in Heaven today, but alas I do not KNOW.
- Good works are not necessary to Salvation
- Salvation is necessary to good works
- Works of any kind are dead without Salvation
- Works for Salvation when you are already Saved are useless. I don't know if they will be rewarded.
- Works in gratitude to God for Salvation will be rewarded.
- Salvation without works no reward.
I don't see how you can say that attempting to work your way to heaven is the same as having the Gift of Eternal life and Being so grateful that you want others to have it so you attempt to live as Christ so others will receive him as their Saviour. Oh by the way that is what it is all about.
Whereas, you or I providing a meal for a hungry person, visiting the sick, visiting the incarcerated or binding up the wounds of the beaten may accomplish the same result here on earth. Only those acts done in gratitude for the Gift of Eternal Life will be rewarded in Heaven.
You might want to study rewards and crowns. O and if you think that wanting rewards in Heaven is selfish read what they are for here.
Revelation 4:9-11
And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
I don't claim to know the answer to all this. But here is current my perspective. I think John 3:16-21 addresses a lot of this salvation/faith/works.
If you hate [or do not believe in] the light, your "works" are not done in the sight of God and your is name not written in the book of life. As believers, we do works to honor God; we want our works exposed before Him. Jesus came to save the world, and our judgment is based in our faith in him, but the judgment will come later unknown day/time. Will our names be in the book of life? Did we do "works" in the light and in the sight of God, or in the darkness? The judgment is based on our faith (3:16 & 3:18). Jesus didn't come to judge us at that time (3:17). "Works," and the reason we do them, are evidence of that faith, and that evidence is what we will be judged on (3:20-21). I don't see the judgment being based specifically on what works you did or how many times you did them, but whether you did them in the light.
edit: there is also the idea of rewards in heaven based on our works done in the light. My knowledge/understanding on this is very weak. so that may also be a judgment. But if we are to be truly judged on works, our salvation/eternal life is not at stake, but can determine heavenly rewards. I don't have scripture on hand to back this up, but I feel it will also matter whether we did these works to improve our heavenly rewards vs for His Glory.
That made sense in my head, hopefully the point made its way through they key board.
-rvb
If you hate [or do not believe in] the light, your "works" are not done in the sight of God and your is name not written in the book of life. As believers, we do works to honor God; we want our works exposed before Him. Jesus came to save the world, and our judgment is based in our faith in him, but the judgment will come later unknown day/time. Will our names be in the book of life? Did we do "works" in the light and in the sight of God, or in the darkness? The judgment is based on our faith (3:16 & 3:18). Jesus didn't come to judge us at that time (3:17). "Works," and the reason we do them, are evidence of that faith, and that evidence is what we will be judged on (3:20-21). I don't see the judgment being based specifically on what works you did or how many times you did them, but whether you did them in the light.
edit: there is also the idea of rewards in heaven based on our works done in the light. My knowledge/understanding on this is very weak. so that may also be a judgment. But if we are to be truly judged on works, our salvation/eternal life is not at stake, but can determine heavenly rewards. I don't have scripture on hand to back this up, but I feel it will also matter whether we did these works to improve our heavenly rewards vs for His Glory.
That made sense in my head, hopefully the point made its way through they key board.
-rvb
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I don't see how you can say that that's what I'm saying (the first part).
That's NOT what I'm saying. To be totally honest, when speaking to certain Protestants, it feels like there are straw men all over the place. That's why I asked when you left Catholicism. You keep assigning beliefs to Catholicism that are not actually the beliefs, and ideas specifically to me that I did not proffer.
Mostly, I am trying to show that the distinctions between paradigms are minimal, and generally non-biblical.
There is absolutely nothing there to disagree with.
I do not think it selfish, I think it natural.
God loves us. All of us. He wants us to be joined with Him in Heaven. His desire for that does not overwhelm our free will. He wants us to both choose Him and in choosing Him, act in concert with His love and plan for us.
This is what first comes to mind.
(I understood you to mean "entirely" instead of "entry.")
This is a straw man style argument, or a mischaracterization of what I said and Catholic doctrine. (Which, admittedly, may be 2 different things at times.)
Entry was a typo that i did not catch, Sorry.
That statement has nothing to do with Catholic doctrine or dogma.
It is a statement of Faith. Salvation must be totally stand alone. It must be totally of Christ.
I can not speak to your beliefs, beside what you have stated. It seems that both you and Fozoe have stated that some works are necessary to salvation. (sorry not an exact quote)
some
determiner
1.
an unspecified amount or number of.
"I made some money running errands"
2.
used to refer to someone or something that is unknown or unspecified.
"she married some newspaper magnate twice her age"
pronoun
1.
an unspecified number or amount of people or things.
"here are some of our suggestions"
2.
at least a small amount or number of people or things.
"surely some have noticed"
adverb NORTH AMERICAN informal
1.
to some extent; somewhat.
"when you get to the majors, the rules change some"
If you remove the word some it changes nothing.
Romans 4:6 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Ephesians 2 8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Romans 3:24-27
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
And don't for get the 82 thesis, The just shall live by works.
That statement has nothing to do with Catholic doctrine or dogma.
It is a statement of Faith. Salvation must be totally stand alone. It must be totally of Christ.
I can not speak to your beliefs, beside what you have stated. It seems that both you and Fozoe have stated that some works are necessary to salvation. (sorry not an exact quote)
some
determiner
1.
an unspecified amount or number of.
"I made some money running errands"
2.
used to refer to someone or something that is unknown or unspecified.
"she married some newspaper magnate twice her age"
pronoun
1.
an unspecified number or amount of people or things.
"here are some of our suggestions"
2.
at least a small amount or number of people or things.
"surely some have noticed"
adverb NORTH AMERICAN informal
1.
to some extent; somewhat.
"when you get to the majors, the rules change some"
If you remove the word some it changes nothing.
Romans 4:6 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Ephesians 2 8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Romans 3:24-27
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
And don't for get the 82 thesis, The just shall live by works.
Let's be honest, if the Catholics were to rewrite the Bible, James would be in 72 pt font. If the Wesleyans were to do it, I John would be a footnote somewhere. If Calvinists did it, there would be only Romans 9...
The Bible does contain enough evidence to state that works matter. But WHY they matter is what is important. Catholics believe (from what I have gathered) that works/salvation work hand and glove. Protestants believe that salvation happens and that CAUSES one to do the works.
Lets all take a deep breath and ask the Orthodox to write a 7000 word essay on works and salvation.
The Bible does contain enough evidence to state that works matter. But WHY they matter is what is important. Catholics believe (from what I have gathered) that works/salvation work hand and glove. Protestants believe that salvation happens and that CAUSES one to do the works.
Lets all take a deep breath and ask the Orthodox to write a 7000 word essay on works and salvation.
No worries. I thought I knew what you meant.
How can it not? I expressed that works were important. You responded that if works are any part of it, then it is works-based. That is not what I said.
Ok. Let's leave the works stuff. I feel like we're talking around each other.
As I understand it, one achieves "salvation" by choosing Christ. (Shorthand, but just trying to simply express the concept.) After doing that, entry into heaven is guaranteed, regardless what acts the person does afterward.
Which brings me back to a prior question. If someone does "salvation" then backslides - badly - what then?
Not a problem, I can work with that.
The point is that we will be judged not only by our faith, but our actions in conformity with that faith. Depending on the result of that judgment, we gain entry into heaven... or not.
And I, personally, think that's a distinction without a difference.
Only God can know the motivation, what is in men's hearts. He knows if it is to glorify Him or for personal recognition. The rest of us are imperfect judges of that.
They need to be asked?Lets all take a deep breath and ask the Orthodox to write a 7000 word essay on works and salvation.
I obviously misunderstood what you meant by that statement.
Do you believe that works are necessary to salvation.
You don't choose Christ to go to Heaven, You accept the Gift that He offers to you. If Christ has given you the Gift of Eternal Life you go to Heaven when you die or at the rapture.
The Judgement Seat Of Christ was explained formerly here.
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...-all-things-christianity-108.html#post6919526
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...-all-things-christianity-109.html#post6919630
Just as an aside, It is notable that I who claim the supremacy of scripture give extensive quotes of same, and the only thing I've seen to the contrary is a couple of lines from a creed and other words of men.
The scriptures you quote are not necessary, there is a higher supremacy.
No. For several reasons.
I'll explain below, because this part is actually helpful.
So. Works are not "necessary" because (and this is my view, expressed informally, which may or may not coincide with doctrinal teachings of the Roman Catholic Church):
- We are not capable of binding God. What we do or not do cannot force God into any particular decision-result. The Bible teaches us the process, what we need to know to end up in communion with God. Saying works are "necessary" makes it seem like a checklist, that if we get enough boxes checked, it is automatic. I do not believe there are any "automatic" decisions for God.
- That we will be judged by our faith and works does not make works "necessary." It is a criterion in the judgment. One's faith, at the time of judgment, may be sufficient for God's mercy to be extended. Faith is not binary, on/off. And even if it is binary sometimes, we imperfectly keep the switch on all the time. Like those who came to Jesus in their final moments, when there was no time for action, Jesus found that the faith was sufficient. Ultimately, that is up to God.
- I believe I mentioned this up-thread, but I believe the mechanism to include a kind of "saving throw." God's mercy is unlimited. If, at the moment of judgment, there is true contrition for sinful acts, it is up to Him to decide. So, to answer my own question, yes - a "backslider" may still gain admittance to Heaven.
Also worth noting is that your quotes don't really support your assertions.
Foszoe and I have extensively quoted the Biblical material in support of the our traditions.
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Bible deism is no substitute.
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