CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[foszoe]

Just as an aside, It is notable that I who claim the supremacy of scripture give extensive quotes of same, and the only thing I've seen to the contrary is a couple of lines from a creed and other words of men.

This was lower hanging fruit so here is the Creed with Biblical references

I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
One God (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Creator of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible; (Colossians 1: 15-16) and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God (Matthew 14: 33; 16: 16)
begotten (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
begotten of the Father before all ages; (John 1: 2)
Light of Light (Psalm 27: I; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
true God of true God, (John 17: 1-5)
of one essence with the Father, (John 10: 30)
through Whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us and for our salvation (I Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from the heavens ((John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
Crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; I Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 1: 14)
He suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried; (Luke 23: 53; I Corinthians 15: 4)
Rising on the third day according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1; 1 Cor. 15: 4)
And ascending into the heavens, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
He is seated at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
And coming again in glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and dead, (Acts 10: 42; 2 I Timothy 4: 1)
His kingodom shall have no end; (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord (Acts 5: 3-4)
the Giver of life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father, (John 15: 26)
Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets; (I Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5, 13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (I Peter 2: 5, 9)
catholic (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church; (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; (Ephesians 4: 5)
I expect the resurrection of the dead; (John 11: 24; I Cor. 15: 12-49)
And the life of the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
Amen. (Psalm 106:48)

I admit this is a cut and paste job. I do have several versions of it in print form with different bible references.

 

[2A_Tom]

Bible deism is no substitute.

.
I'll take that as a joke.

 

[ATM]

.
I'll take that as a joke.

Just a statement, certainly not a joke.

 

[T.Lex]

This was lower hanging fruit so here is the Creed with Biblical references

I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
One God (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Creator of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible; (Colossians 1: 15-16) and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God (Matthew 14: 33; 16: 16)
begotten (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
begotten of the Father before all ages; (John 1: 2)
Light of Light (Psalm 27: I; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
true God of true God, (John 17: 1-5)
of one essence with the Father, (John 10: 30)
through Whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us and for our salvation (I Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from the heavens ((John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
Crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; I Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 1: 14)
He suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried; (Luke 23: 53; I Corinthians 15: 4)
Rising on the third day according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1; 1 Cor. 15: 4)
And ascending into the heavens, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
He is seated at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
And coming again in glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and dead, (Acts 10: 42; 2 I Timothy 4: 1)
His kingodom shall have no end; (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord (Acts 5: 3-4)
the Giver of life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father, (John 15: 26)
Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets; (I Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5, 13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (I Peter 2: 5, 9)
catholic (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church; (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; (Ephesians 4: 5)
I expect the resurrection of the dead; (John 11: 24; I Cor. 15: 12-49)
And the life of the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
Amen. (Psalm 106:48)

I admit this is a cut and paste job. I do have several versions of it in print form with different bible references.

Actually, I appreciate that very much. Have never seen it in footnoted like that (at least not that I remember). It particularly tracks the recent changes we made to the English translation.

There's a part missing, though, that I just ... can't ... seem ... to ... place ....

 

[foszoe]

A quote of mine and chapter and verse would be helpful in discerning what you mean.

Sorry, I was not trying to be unclear.

I would offer up all of Matthew 25 but especially 31-46.

I was referring to a statement that you have made in more than one post but I didn't go quite as strong as you. You have stated Either God is lying or he meant what he said, I recall it being around the sign of Jonah passage.

 

[foszoe]

First, thank you for the response. The passages you reference don't actually provide textual support for your assertion that entry into heaven is a certainty based upon a single choice here on earth, but I'd like to follow up on Greeky McOrthodoxy's point.




What difference would it make how many judgments there are if arrival in heaven was a certainty? Locking that in by earthly act/choice basically removes any need for judgment. In other words, what is there to judge?

How do you include quotes in a quote? I just learned how to multi quote like a month or so ago!

 

[T.Lex]

How do you include quotes in a quote? I just learned how to multi quote like a month or so ago!

haha

Ok. You're familiar with matryoshki, the Russian nesting dolls? The

tag is similar to that. You can nest them.

(replace {} with the square brackets)

{quote}{quote}{quote}little doll{/quote}medium doll{/quote}big doll{/quote}

Gives you this:

little doll

medium doll

big doll

You may have to copy and paste to get stuff in the right places.

 

[ATM]

How do you include quotes in a quote? I just learned how to multi quote like a month or so ago!

How do you include quotes in a quote? I just learned how to multi quote like a month or so ago!

How do you include quotes in a quote? I just learned how to multi quote like a month or so ago!

Quoteception.

 

[T.Lex]

Maybe if I explained how the third quote proceeds from both of the first 2 quotes and not just one, it would've made more sense.

(Maybe that burn is too obscure....)

 

[historian]

Perhaps it is two sticks with the third branching out from them? Or is the third stick branching out from only one stick?

Maybe if I explained how the third quote proceeds from both of the first 2 quotes and not just one, it would've made more sense.

(Maybe that burn is too obscure....)

Cough LATE Cough

 

[foszoe]

It is appointed unto the US to have a presidential election and after that the inauguration.
After that does not necessarily denote immediacy.

The judgment seat of Christ is where all the Saints (a Biblical term denoting all saved persons) will stand before Christ and be judged according to their works.*

2 Corinthians 5:10 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 14:10 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

I don't see how these verses support the thesis statement above. the Greek word for all in this verse matches.

Romans 5:12 Adj-AMP
GRK: οὕτως εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους ὁ
NAS: death spread to all men, because
KJV: passed upon all men, for
INT: thus to all men

So left to conjecture, perhaps your argument comes from context? In which case I would use the immediate context to use vs 9 as evidence that labour means labor.

In Context

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.



I would use literalism to say that all should usually mean all unless it has a qualifier such as here...

Romans 3:22 Adj-AMP
GRK: Χριστοῦ εἰς πάντας τοὺς πιστεύοντας
NAS: Christ for all those
KJV: Christ unto all and upon
INT: Christ toward all those that believe

1 Corinthians 3:1

1-15| View whole chapter | See verse in context
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

We do not fear for our Salvation but that the works that we did for the lord were acceptable, and not in vain.

The verse just before 3:10 which you quote says

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.


10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

is Paul making a claim of being a masterbuilder and others building on it? Sounds a lot like the beginnings of an argument for Apostolic succession.

It is interesting that the verses here do not use the word fear as you have in your comment, the scriptures do use the word fear here though,

Philippians 2:12King James Version (KJV)


12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

If you know that you are Saved (1 John 5;13) and the outworking of your Salvation is working for Christ out of pure gratitude (Philippians 2:12) for your free salvation, you will receive rewards for those things that you have done for others in the name of Christ.

Here is where I depart from many fundamentalists.

If you have sincerely trusted Christ at some time in your life, but you don't KNOW that you are saved and you join a Church, do "church things", do good works, help people &c in order to curry favor with God and earn your way to Heaven, then your works are wood, hay and stubble. You will go to Heaven but will have little or no rewards.

Do you know you are saved? Or do you know because you believe?

To me the thrust of how you believe salvation is obtained is that you must believe or have faith etc.

Is there any difference between the words believe, know?

If you have never truly trusted in Christ and does all the "church stuff", you will stand before the

Great white throne of judgment.

Revelation 20:11-15

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is really long and I don't really expect anyone to read it. I do hope that someone will see that the first category makes the most sense and come around to it.

So, you are saying that only Christians stand before the judgement seat of Christ, and only Sinners before the Great White Throne of Judgement?

This is another new doctrine to me. What reformers elaborated this?

I read everything.

 

[foszoe]

Quoteception.

Mind Blown

 

[foszoe]

Attempting a slight reset before answering more posts because, i have stated so often, until one agrees on terms, there is no real conversation.

To my Protestant brethern:

What is salvation?

i am not trying to be demeaning in any way, but here is what I hear/read from Protestants in general as i have alluded to before.

Salvation is being saved from something. Salvation is being forgiven of my sins and thus escaping from punishment. There can be more to a life in Christ, but when it comes to salvation that is really all there is.

Salvation is personal in that only I can make the choice, no one can get my sins forgiven except me, myself and I.

Needless to say, I would reject both the above statements and further claim that they are not biblical in the sense that the narrative of the bible contradicts the first and that specific examples contradict the second. I am not saying they can not be true but that they are not axioms. i would base my denial on two phrases "all there is" in the first and "only" in the second.

What are works?

What are dead works?

What are live works?

Is faith a work? Why not?

Is belief a work? Why not?

Can you know something without work?

Are these words different in meaning at all?

If EVERYTHING depends on Christ alone why is my response necessary?

If my response is necessary how can everything possibly depend on Christ alone?

Bible references welcome.

I will state once again though that the OT must be interpreted in light of the Epistles which must be interpreted in light of the Gospels, so if Jesus says we are judged according to deeds and our eternal resting place is a result of that judgement (Matthew 25) Then quoting me Paul saying something that seems to be different must be reconciled in the light of what Jesus said, not the other way around.

 

[foszoe]

Maybe if I explained how the third quote proceeds from both of the first 2 quotes and not just one, it would've made more sense.

(Maybe that burn is too obscure....)

Well, that is just plain Augustinean. It is more proper to say the second quote is eternally begotten of the first and the 3rd quote is eternally preceeding from the 1st quote.

St Augustine should have stuck to sermons and not theology. His sermons are very spiritually nourishing, his theology not so much..


You can get no rep so this acknowledgement will have to do.

 

[T.Lex]

Well, that is just plain Augustinean.

From anyone else, I feel like that'd be a compliment.

From you, I'm not so sure.

You can get no rep so this acknowledgement will have to do.

Fair enough. I did not do it for earthly accolades. I think God appreciates a sense of humor.

 

[historian]

Lets just stop the love fest between you two.

How many fingers do you use to make the sign of the cross?

 

[foszoe]

Lets just stop the love fest between you two.

How many fingers do you use to make the sign of the cross?

He does it backwards....

 

[2A_Tom]

I believe in
(Romans 10: 8-10
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.;
1 John 4: 15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.)
One God
(Deuteronomy 6: 4,
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD
Ephesians 4: 6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.)
Father
(Matthew 6: 9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.)
Almighty,
(Exodus 6: 3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.)
Creator of heaven and earth,
(Genesis 1: 1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
and of all things visible and invisible;
(Colossians 1: 15-16
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:)
and in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
(Acts 11: 17
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?)
Son of God
(Matthew 14: 33;
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
16: 16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.)
begotten
(John 1: 18;
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
3: 16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.)
begotten of the Father before all ages;
(John 1: 2
The same was in the beginning with God.)
Light of Light
(Psalm 27:I;
The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
John 8: 12;
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Matthew 17: 2,5
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.)
true God of true God,
(John 17: 1-5
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.)
of one essence with the Father,
(John 10: 30
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.)
through Whom all things were made;
(Hebrews 1: 1-2
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;)
Who for us and for our salvation
(I Timothy 2: 4-5
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;)
came down from the heavens
(John 6: 33,35
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.)
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary,
(Luke 1: 35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.)
and became man.
(John 1: 14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.)
Crucified for us
(Mark 15: 25;
And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
I Corinthians 15: 3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;)
under Pontius Pilate,
(John 1: 14
This verse does not work, but here area few that may. PONTIUS PILATE IN THE BIBLE)
He suffered,
(Mark 8: 31
And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.)
and was buried;
(Luke 23: 53;
And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
I Corinthians 15: 4
And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.)
Rising on the third day according to the Scriptures,
(Luke 24: 1;
Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
1 Cor. 15: 4
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:)
And ascending into the heavens,
(Luke 24: 51;
And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
Acts 1: 10
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;)
He is seated at the right hand of the Father;
(Mark 16: 19;
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Acts 7: 55
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,)
And coming again in glory
(Matthew 24: 27
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.)
to judge the living and dead,
(Acts 10: 42;
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
2 Timothy 4: 1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;)
His kingdom shall have no end;
(2 Peter 1: 11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.)
And in the holy Spirit,
(John 14: 26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.)
Lord
(Acts 5: 3-4
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.)
the Giver of life,
(Genesis 1: 2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.)
Who proceeds from the Father,
(John 15: 26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:)

 

[T.Lex]

Wow. That'd be tough to memorize.

 

[foszoe]

Wow. That'd be tough to memorize.

Especially when so few people had a copy of the book.

I do thank blue falcon for doing the legwork.