CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[foszoe]

I'm busy installing a water heater, so I can't delve into this right now, but Blue Falcon is correct.

The blood of Christ washes away all are sin and all the Father sees in that book of judgement is righteousness - nothing we do (or don't do) is visible beneath the white washing from the Blood (red washing doesn't sound right...)


Sola Gratis

So when Jesus says he judges by deeds , to use blue falcon phrasing, he didn't really mean it?

 

[ATM]

How many are there?

A. one

B. two

C. Bacon

 

[JettaKnight]

So when Jesus says he judges by deeds , to use blue falcon phrasing, he didn't really mean it?

I'll need a reference to discuss this.

I'm not going to say "he didn't mean it", but to take it on face value with no context, then we start to go down a dangerous path - if we're judged on deeds, then how much good deeds do I need to do? Is it different for each person? Does it vary from age to age? Why did the free gift suddenly have terms and conditions attached? It's not really free is it? Do I need to become a Jew for Jesus and start following the law?

 

[ATM]

I'll need a reference to discuss this.

I'm not going to say "he didn't mean it", but to take it on face value with no context, then we start to go down a dangerous path - if we're judged on deeds, then how much good deeds do I need to do? Is it different for each person? Does it vary from age to age? Why did the free gift suddenly have terms and conditions attached? It's not really free is it? Do I need to become a Jew for Jesus and start following the law?

Consider that if there is more than one seat of judgement, they might not both relate to what one may understand as salvation.

(I pick B, unless both B and C is an option.)

 

[JettaKnight]

Consider that if there is more than one seat of judgement, they might not both relate to what one may understand as salvation.

(I pick B, unless both B and C is an option.)

I you would, please expand upon this. I have my thoughts, but I'll wait.




PS - the water heater is installed, but now I have to study tax law.

 

[foszoe]

I'll need a reference to discuss this.

I'm not going to say "he didn't mean it", but to take it on face value with no context, then we start to go down a dangerous path - if we're judged on deeds, then how much good deeds do I need to do? Is it different for each person? Does it vary from age to age? Why did the free gift suddenly have terms and conditions attached? It's not really free is it? Do I need to become a Jew for Jesus and start following the law?

No problem. Although I don't think I am taking it out of context.

I would inquire though, does every question you ask have to be answered?

Or why isn't I don't know a valid answer?
My answer to your questions would be Lord have mercy!

I would also reverse your use of suddenly It was always so until it wasn't. The terms and conditions were suddenly reduced to one, but there is still the term and condition of faith according to the reformers, I believe.

I am always open to better understanding and correction.

 

[ATM]

I you would, please expand upon this. I have my thoughts, but I'll wait...

Nah, I hate typing.

 

[foszoe]

So based on the poll, we would all agree there is one. For sake of argument, let's say there is a second judgment. Can one's eternal destiny change between the 2?

 

[ATM]

So based on the poll, we would all agree there is one. For sake of argument, let's say there is a second judgment. Can one's eternal destiny change between the 2?

For the sake of argument, let's say there are two judgement seats.

Will one face judgement before both?

 

[foszoe]

For the sake of argument, let's say there are two judgement seats.

Will one face judgement before both?

I will give you an Orthodox answer. I don't know.

 

[ATM]

I will give you an Orthodox answer. I don't know.

"I don't know" is a gift which originally defined us. Knowing came with a curse.

 

[foszoe]

There is an Orthodox teaching of a particular judgement immediately after death and the general judgement at the second coming.

There can be no "change" in destination between the two, but all men will stand at both judgements.

The Creed is more simplistic, "And He will come again to Judge the living and the dead"

Two things that are talked about a lot in Protestant Theology that get very little attention in Orthodoxy is what happens after death and eschatology in general. The eschatological statement is "His Kingdom shall have no end" and "I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come. "

So for myself, the dogmatic statement is the Creed. I believe in both judgements, but as to how much that matters, is probably negligible.

 

[foszoe]

"I don't know" is a gift which originally defined us. Knowing came with a curse.

That's a nice way of putting it! I want you to know up front I will be using that line.

 

[foszoe]

Well, if you are alive at the second coming you wouldn't have 2 only one so not all men will face both judgements.

 

[2A_Tom]

So when Jesus says he judges by deeds , to use blue falcon phrasing, he didn't really mean it?

A quote of mine and chapter and verse would be helpful in discerning what you mean.

 

[T.Lex]

So, under this paradigm, nothing that the person does while on earth will matter? I mean you said "will go to heaven" as if that is a certainty. Is it a certainty?

Why yes, yes it is.

2 Corinthians 5:8 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextWe are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Timothy 1:12 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextFor the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committedunto him against that day.

Earlier I posted this. Jesus had just Preached that he was the good shepherd.


John 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

The Jews did not believe jesus was the Messiah.

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Their sin was not the sins of the flesh that kept them out of his flock, but unbelief.


My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

His sheep are not those who preform dead works* but those that that believe.

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.

How long does eternity last? When can I perish? Who can pluck me out of his hand?

*Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Dead works is anything that is done in an effort to be worthy of Heaven.

Romans 4:6 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

First, thank you for the response. The passages you reference don't actually provide textual support for your assertion that entry into heaven is a certainty based upon a single choice here on earth, but I'd like to follow up on Greeky McOrthodoxy's point.

It is appointed unto man onice to die and after that the judgment.

Every reference to the judgment says you will be judged by your deeds, not by what you believe.

Which Judgment are you talking about?

What difference would it make how many judgments there are if arrival in heaven was a certainty? Locking that in by earthly act/choice basically removes any need for judgment. In other words, what is there to judge?

 

[2A_Tom]

It is appointed unto the US to have a presidential election and after that the inauguration.
After that does not necessarily denote immediacy.

The judgment seat of Christ is where all the Saints (a Biblical term denoting all saved persons) will stand before Christ and be judged according to their works.*

2 Corinthians 5:10 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 14:10 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15| View whole chapter | See verse in context
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

We do not fear for our Salvation but that the works that we did for the lord were acceptable, and not in vain.

If you know that you are Saved (1 John 5;13) and the outworking of your Salvation is working for Christ out of pure gratitude (Philippians 2:12) for your free salvation, you will receive rewards for those things that you have done for others in the name of Christ.

Here is where I depart from many fundamentalists.

If you have sincerely trusted Christ at some time in your life, but you don't KNOW that you are saved and you join a Church, do "church things", do good works, help people &c in order to curry favor with God and earn your way to Heaven, then your works are wood, hay and stubble. You will go to Heaven but will have little or no rewards.

If you have never truly trusted in Christ and does all the "church stuff", you will stand before the

Great white throne of judgment.

Revelation 20:11-15
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is really long and I don't really expect anyone to read it. I do hope that someone will see that the first category makes the most sense and come around to it.

 

[T.Lex]

It is appointed unto the US to have a presidential election and after that the inauguration.
After that does not necessarily denote immediacy.

I said nothing about immediacy. Your assertion that heaven entry was a certainty did not have a temporal component, either. And, to be frank, I think both of us would agree that God's understanding of time is likely broader than our own.

The judgment seat of Christ is where all the Saints (a Biblical term denoting all saved persons) will stand before Christ and be judged according to their works.*

Ah... do you want me to find the quotes about how works don't matter?

If you know that you are Saved (1 John 5;13) and the outworking of your Salvation is working for Christ out of pure gratitude (Philippians 2:12) for your free salvation, you will receive rewards for those things that you have done for others in the name of Christ.

That really starts looking like we're saying the same thing.

If you have sincerely trusted Christ at some time in your life, but you don't KNOW that you are saved and you join a Church, do "church things", do good works, help people &c in order to curry favor with God and earn your way to Heaven, then your works are wood, hay and stubble. You will go to Heaven but will have little or no rewards.

If you have never truly trusted in Christ and does all the "church stuff", you will stand before the

Great white throne of judgment.

So, this certainty comes from internal confidence of having accepted Christ. That internal choice and confidence, regardless of what works were performed previous to that or are performed after, means absolute entry into heaven.

That's what it sounds like you are saying.

As a followup, this notion of 2 judgments sounds a whole lot like Purgatory, only with a nicer setting.

 

[2A_Tom]

I would like to address one statement and I can not quote it exactly.

Some think they know things that can not be known. I know that is not exact but I cannot find the quote.

I am a student of the Bible. I have sat under some fabulous teachers and preachers and believe I have a peripheral understanding of the scriptures.

2 Timothy 2:15 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I definitely do not know it all. I attempt to answer questions that are asked with Scripture verses. The bible is the answer to all matters of faith. When I add notes of explanation that is simply my trying to condense into a line or two that in many cases a book could be written (and have been) on the subject.

John 21:25 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be writtenevery one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

 

[T.Lex]

I would like to address one statement and I can not quote it exactly.

Some think they know things that can not be known. I know that is not exact but I cannot find the quote.

I am a student of the Bible. I have sat under some fabulous teachers and preachers and believe I have a peripheral understanding of the scriptures.

2 Timothy 2:15 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I definitely do not know it all. I attempt to answer questions that are asked with Scripture verses. The bible is the answer to all matters of faith. When I add notes of explanation that is simply my trying to condense into a line or two that in many cases a book could be written (and have been) on the subject.

I absolutely agree that it is appropriate to be self-aware enough to "know what we don't know." And that's ok.