CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[foszoe]

I did read it, and think highly of it. Remove the Orthodox formality and structure and you have the basis of a Protestant's sanctified lifestyle.

Ok so I will take it I answered your question Whew.

 

[T.Lex]

Ok so I will take it I answered your question Whew.

I'm not so sure. Can you go over that middle part again?

 

[foszoe]

I'm not so sure. Can you go over that middle part again?

Ok.

I will give you THE ORTHODOX ANSWER to the question "What must I do to be saved?"


Everything and Nothing

Orthodoxy is Paradoxy

and I can support both from the Bible.

Sigh my emoji didn't work....

ah yes it did they just all went up to the top!

 

[T.Lex]

Well. That wasn't nearly as funny.

Is it possible to Denny a religious thread?



ETA:
And yet, I think I understand the everything/nothing paradox and have no issue with it.

 

[historian]

Hold up now.

I thought if you removed the Orthodox formality and structure, you'd have a Catholic.

I frequently have said that if I wasn't a non-reformed Protestant, I would be Orthodox. Unlike Catholics and their ultimate rivals, the Calvinists, Orthodox actually don't seem to believe that they HAVE to know EVERYTHING about how God works. I like that.

 

[T.Lex]

I frequently have said that if I wasn't a non-reformed Protestant, I would be Orthodox. Unlike Catholics and their ultimate rivals, the Calvinists, Orthodox actually don't seem to believe that they HAVE to know EVERYTHING about how God works. I like that.

Totally agree. (Well, I can't vouch for your assessment of Protestants, but I'll accept it.)

In fact, as we've seen, they can write at great length about what is not known.

 

[historian]

The ability to Backslide which, I believe, is the antithesis of the P in Tulip, is a hallmark of John Wesley and his followers.

Let's talk backsliding.

Calvinist: Once Saved, Always Saved
Between the two: Basically everyone else
Wesleyan/Armenian: You can lose your salvation

Now backsliding is a fun conversation. For some, it means that you aren't living as a Christian, but you still are a Christian. For others it means you have never been saved. Where would the Catholic tradition come on such an issue? Is there a "bad" Catholic who will still go to heaven despite living as a sinner? If a Catholic who routinely goes to Mass, Confession, does all the other stuff, but is also a horrible person (I'm thinking the good Catholic gangsters here as an example) still be considered a "good" Catholic?

 

[T.Lex]

Let's talk backsliding.

Ok, but this is kinda a foreign concept. I mean, it isn't rocket science, so I think I have a basic understanding of it.

Now backsliding is a fun conversation. For some, it means that you aren't living as a Christian, but you still are a Christian. For others it means you have never been saved. Where would the Catholic tradition come on such an issue? Is there a "bad" Catholic who will still go to heaven despite living as a sinner?

Absolutely. We are all sinners. There are different kinds of sins, some worse than others.

As a friend of mine once said, no matter where we end up after judgment, we will be surprised by some of the souls in the same place we are, and surprised at who ended up in the other place.

If a Catholic who routinely goes to Mass, Confession, does all the other stuff, but is also a horrible person (I'm thinking the good Catholic gangsters here as an example) still be considered a "good" Catholic?

"Good" in a worldly sense? God has a different perspective.

Again, we are all sinners.

My personal view, I would say "informed" by doctrine, is that perfectly good people are non-existent just like perfectly evil people. We are all within a spectrum between those 2 poles.

A Catholic gangster may feel remorse for murders of innocents, and still tithe and volunteer to make his community better. He is not entirely evil. His soul is certainly stained by his significant sins, but judgement is by God. God will know the depth of the man's remorse and the heights of his selflessness.

There's another important Catholic (and controversial to non-Catholics) concept here: purgatory. That Catholic gangster, if he is judged to eventually enter into communion with God, will first have to be purified, purged of his sins. For gangsters, I suspect that takes awhile.

But, is that really an example of backsliding?

I guess, I had that to mean more like someone who finds salvation/born again/whatever, is dedicated for awhile (perhaps even a LONG while), but then over time abandons the church to return to a prior lifestyle, or close to it. Or is that overly dramatic?

 

[historian]

I guess, I had that to mean more like someone who finds salvation/born again/whatever, is dedicated for awhile (perhaps even a LONG while), but then over time abandons the church to return to a prior lifestyle, or close to it. Or is that overly dramatic?

No.

That is exactly it. I forgot you had purgatory, so you don't have to worry about that issue.

 

[2A_Tom]

Two completely different concepts.

Having been brought up in the Roman Church (works), witnessed to by my (backsliden Baptist) drinking buddy, saved inside an Assembly of God Church (Armenian Pentecostal), Changed to a nondenominational "New Testament " Church (Calvinistic charismatic) and finally landing ib an Independent Baptist Church (Faith in Christ's Blood alone) I have studied each of these in depth.

Wow.
Perseverance of the Saints , is the one of the five points of Calvinism that all reformationist and partial reformationist accept as truth. I think even a large number of Methodist accept it as truth.

Perseverance of the Saints states that those who are Saved will certainly persevere to the end. If they don't they obviously weren't truly saved.

Once Saved Always Saved

One who trusts Christ to save them is Saved. Period. Full stop. When he/ dies she/ will go to heaven. Period. Full stop. Nothing that happens between salvation and death can change that. Period. Full stop. Until you and I meet in heaven we will not that the other was saved.

Armenianism Is every time you sin you lose your salvation and have to get saved again.

Romanism is if you commit a mortal sin and don't confess it you are in danger of Hell or at least Purgatory.

 

[T.Lex]

No.

That is exactly it. I forgot you had purgatory, so you don't have to worry about that issue.

I wouldn't go quite that far.

Mother Theresa, who by any definition under any paradigm, was a dedicated servant of God, worried about her own sinfulness. She had doubts. In spite of those doubts, she did her best to keep her faith and live by it, which is all any of us can do.

Two completely different concepts.

Having been brought up in the Roman Church (works)

You keep saying that.

At what age did you leave the church?

Perseverance of the Saints states that those who are Saved will certainly persevere to the end. If they don't they obviously weren't truly saved.

One who trusts Christ to save them is Saved. Period. Full stop. When he/ dies she/ will go to heaven. Period. Full stop. Nothing that happens between salvation and death can change that. Period. Full stop. Until you and I meet in heaven we will not that the other was saved.

So, under this paradigm, nothing that the person does while on earth will matter? I mean you said "will go to heaven" as if that is a certainty. Is it a certainty?

Romanism is if you commit a mortal sin and don't confess it you are in danger of Hell or at least Purgatory.

Wouldn't a mortal sin, post - "being saved" - indicate that the "saving" wasn't necessarily effective?

 

[2A_Tom]

So, under this paradigm, nothing that the person does while on earth will matter? I mean you said "will go to heaven" as if that is a certainty. Is it a certainty?

Why yes, yes it is.

2 Corinthians 5:8 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextWe are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Timothy 1:12 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextFor the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committedunto him against that day.

 

[2A_Tom]

Earlier I posted this. Jesus had just Preached that he was the good shepherd.


John 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

The Jews did not believe jesus was the Messiah.

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Their sin was not the sins of the flesh that kept them out of his flock, but unbelief.


My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

His sheep are not those who preform dead works* but those that that believe.

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.

How long does eternity last? When can I perish? Who can pluck me out of his hand?

*Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Dead works is anything that is done in an effort to be worthy of Heaven.

Romans 4:6 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

 

[foszoe]

Totally agree. (Well, I can't vouch for your assessment of Protestants, but I'll accept it.)

In fact, as we've seen, they can write at great length about what is not known.

This made me LOL with belly laughter!

 

[foszoe]

So, under this paradigm, nothing that the person does while on earth will matter? I mean you said "will go to heaven" as if that is a certainty. Is it a certainty?

Why yes, yes it is.

2 Corinthians 5:8 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextWe are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Timothy 1:12 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextFor the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committedunto him against that day.

It is appointed unto man onice to die and after that the judgment.

Every reference to the judgment says you will be judged by your deeds, not by what you believe.

 

[foszoe]

Earlier I posted this. Jesus had just Preached that he was the good shepherd.


John 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

The Jews did not believe jesus was the Messiah.

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Their sin was not the sins of the flesh that kept them out of his flock, but unbelief.


My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

His sheep are not those who preform dead works* but those that that believe.

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.

How long does eternity last? When can I perish? Who can pluck me out of his hand?

*Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Dead works is anything that is done in an effort to be worthy of Heaven.

Romans 4:6 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Matthew says sheep are those who did things, visited the poor, fed the hungry, etc.

Following does not equal faith alone it implies movement.

I would even say faith is a work.

You refer to dead works. This seems to indicate you believe in live works?

 

[2A_Tom]

Which Judgment are you talking about?

 

[foszoe]

Which Judgment are you talking about?

How many are there?

 

[JettaKnight]

No.

That is exactly it. I forgot you had purgatory, so you don't have to worry about that issue.

How did you forget about it - it's in the Bible.

 

[JettaKnight]

It is appointed unto man onice to die and after that the judgment.

Every reference to the judgment says you will be judged by your deeds, not by what you believe.

I'm busy installing a water heater, so I can't delve into this right now, but Blue Falcon is correct.

The blood of Christ washes away all are sin and all the Father sees in that book of judgement is righteousness - nothing we do (or don't do) is visible beneath the white washing from the Blood (red washing doesn't sound right...)


Sola Gratis