CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[JettaKnight]

Blue Falcon - you sound a lot like a theology teacher of mine.

Next you be going on a twenty minute rant about how "Hark the Herald Angel Sing" is dumb because there's absolutely no record of angels singing.

 

[2A_Tom]

Actually I don't care what someone believes about days. I fall into the category of not respecting days.

The only thing that matters is that you (plural, general) are trusting Jesus + nothing - nothing for your salvation.

No Church, creed, mass, baptism, confession, Lord's supper, work or obligation; observed or omitted will get you to Heaven. It is Christ and His shed blood alone that makes a place for you.

 

[ATM]

Actually I don't care what someone believes about days. I fall into the category of not respecting days.

The only thing that matters is that you (plural, general) are trusting Jesus + nothing - nothing for your salvation.

No Church, creed, mass, baptism, confession, Lord's supper, work or obligation; observed or omitted will get you to Heaven. It is Christ and His shed blood alone that makes a place for you.

If personal salvation was all it meant to be Christian, that might be all that mattered.

But, we know that's only a beginning, right?

 

[ATM]

They, by and large, have dispensed with you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalist_theology

Yes, we can talk about whatever you'd like.

 

[2A_Tom]

The most important step.

A personal walk with Christ should follow. That is not possible with out salvation. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

 

[foszoe]

You know that Christ rose on Sunday. God says that He was in the grave for three days and three nights. The Jews count sun down as the beginning of the day. Passover is the fourteenth day of the first month. The Jews go by Lunar months of 28 days. Unlike their cousins the Ismaelites they add a month occasionally to make their year sync with the solar year. These are facts that can not be denied.

According to the available facts Passover was on Thursday the year that Christ died. Either that or God made a mistake.

I am not affirming or denying that.

According to your Bible, when were the Passover Lambs slain? Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday or you don't know?

 

[2A_Tom]

On the evening of the day of preparation. That would be the thirteenth day of the first month. Which necessarily meand that it would shift from year to year.

Can you not see that? what day was Christmas on in 1932, without looking at a calendar.
Respectfully are you being intentionally obtuse?

 

[foszoe]

If personal salvation was all it meant to be Christian, that might be all that mattered.

But, we know that's only a beginning, right?

Give me all the scriptures that speak of a personal salvation and perhaps we can explore the topic starting with those.

 

[2A_Tom]

Romans

 

[foszoe]

On the evening of the day of preparation. That would be the thirteenth day of the first month. Which necessarily meand that it would shift from year to year.

Can you not see that? what day was Christmas on in 1932, without looking at a calendar.
Respectfully are you being intentionally obtuse?

I am asking you to name the day of the week, do you not know? It's fine to not know. Just say so.

I don't know of a single verse that speaks of personal salvation for example and you gave me a whole book to read. I doubt every single verse in Romans does but I will go through it again.

You know the OT tells us when the Lambs are to be slaughtered. We both agree that the day of the week can change.

You believe Christ died on a different day then most say, so I am asking you to say what day you believe the Lambs were slaughtered the week Christ died in celebration of the Jewish Passover. If the Bible provides enough info to answer than answer If it doesn't then say so.

I am not making any judgment nor do I have a hidden agenda. You are the first person I have encountered that had put forward Wed or Thurs as the day of Crucifixion so I want to see how you piece it all together.

 

[ATM]

...I don't know of a single verse that speaks of personal salvation...

Luke 23:43 comes to mind.

 

[foszoe]

Luke 23:43 comes to mind.

Very good! Thank you for the citation

I admit I was rather imprecise as I am phone typing at the moment.

I was thinking more of the doctrine of personal salvation as is often described by the Sinners Prayer or 4 laws etc

I do apologize!

Perhaps I should refrain from posting until I am back on my computer. It's more conducive to my posting style.

 

[2A_Tom]

I am asking you to name the day of the week, do you not know? It's fine to not know. Just say so.

I don't know of a single verse that speaks of personal salvation for example and you gave me a whole book to read. I doubt every single verse in Romans does but I will go through it again.

You know the OT tells us when the Lambs are to be slaughtered. We both agree that the day of the week can change.

You believe Christ died on a different day then most say, so I am asking you to say what day you believe the Lambs were slaughtered the week Christ died in celebration of the Jewish Passover. If the Bible provides enough info to answer than answer If it doesn't then say so.

I am not making any judgment nor do I have a hidden agenda. You are the first person I have encountered that had put forward Wed or Thurs as the day of Crucifixion so I want to see how you piece it all together.

I told you and you either did not reas it or are ignoring it.

Since Jesus rose on Sunday after being in the grave for three days and three nights, Passover had to be on Thursday and the lamb would have been killed on thr evening of the preparation, Wednesday.

If you want an extra-Biblical answer then read a Creed, that someone wrote after a cursory reading of the accounts of "the" Gospel and mistakenly assumed that the word Sabbath referred to Saturday because they did not comprehend the context.

As for personal Salvation. Jesus said it best. Only those who believe on Him have everlasting life.

John 10:24-30Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.

John 14:6 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[2A_Tom]

This one.

Acts 16:30 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

 

[foszoe]

I told you and you either did not reas it or are ignoring it.

Since Jesus rose on Sunday after being in the grave for three days and three nights, Passover had to be on Thursday and the lamb would have been killed on thr evening of the preparation, Wednesday.

If you want an extra-Biblical answer then read a Creed, that someone wrote after a cursory reading of the accounts of "the" Gospel and mistakenly assumed that the word Sabbath referred to Saturday because they did not comprehend the context.

As for personal Salvation. Jesus said it best. Only those who believe on Him have everlasting life.

If you posted Wednesday in an earlier post and I missed it, I apologize.

 

[foszoe]

Luke 23:43 comes to mind.

Ok, back on a computer with a full keyboard!

Do you have a preferred translation? I try to use KJV for blue falcon and if you do have one, I will try to use it. I will start with the KJV.

""39And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.""

When I talk of personal salvation, I would say that in the sense you, as a person, have a personal choice to make, that is true and that is biblical. However that choice is only the beginning of salvation and not its end.

For the reformers, salvation became an entirely vertical affair, a connection between you and God, a being saved from something. Prior to the reformation, and still to this day, Orthodox and I would believe Catholics also, insist there is a horizontal to salvation that extends to all those around you and the whole of creation itself. And that this horizontal connection is just as important in a "normal" Christian life. In other words those of us living it out and not converting on the "deathbed" so to speak.

Returning to the Thief. I would say he interacted with at least 3 other people while gaining his salvation demonstrating his faith. Of course it's hypothetical, and I will ask it rhetorically, but would he have went to paradise if he hung there quietly?

We must not put limits on God so I would not answer yes or no personally, but I do think it is more inline with the bible to believe that through these interactions, the Thief gained paradise.

Even if I can plant the seed that the person who brought you to Christ, be it parents, grandparents, friends etc implies a horizontal connection then I am happy.

 

[T.Lex]

So for me, and this isn't necessarily a doctrinal thing, I believe there isn't a single "path" to salvation. It is more like a ticket that we print for ourselves. There are common elements - accepting the supremacy of the Trinity as the one true God, certainly - but "choosing" Jesus with our own free will is only part of it. Maybe the larger part of it, but still only a part.

The rest is up to us.

To parry before the thrust, this is not purely works-based. But, it is not only choice-based.

Biblically, I think the confusion is that the words of Christ and the prophets describe a process, not a map. Going back to the ticket analogy, our print may be scrambled or thin at different times of our life, but we must continue to choose to hold on to it and not stop printing upon it.

Prior to the reformation, and still to this day, Orthodox and I would believe Catholics also, insist there is a horizontal to salvation that extends to all those around you and the whole of creation itself. And that this horizontal connection is just as important in a "normal" Christian life.

Yes, I agree with that characterization, too. If we truly "choose" to live in accordance with Christ, such "horizontal" works will manifest from that choice.

 

[foszoe]

This one.

Acts 16:30 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Does answer given in the next verse mark the beginning of a journey or an end?

What I mean by that is this:

I believe we would both accept the following

It is appointed unto man to die and after that the judgement.

So I would think that we believe every man will be judged? If not, just say so and give me the reference.

Otherwise,

Show me in scripture where we will be judged according to what we believe?

Every reference to the judgment I am familiar with speaks of judgment for what we have done, not what we have believed.

 

[JettaKnight]

Foszoe, what does "sanctification" mean to you? (serious question, I don't know how Orthodox use the term)

As one of those of the reformed persuasion, salvation is indeed one time affair, but if it is genuine then it is always followed by sanctification - the continuing act of become Christ like that is only completed after departure from this world. That encompasses what you describe as a horizontal connection.

For me, my actual salvation at a tender age was rather bland, if not half hearted. I was lead by a zealous Southern Baptist intent on putting another notch in the leather cover on his Bible. What is true is the sanctification that follows in the rest of my life. J D Greear wrote a small book, "Stop Asking Jesus Into Your Heart" that addresses the two problem we see in Gospel Centered churches: (1) People that life a sinful life but rely on that one time conversion as "fire insurance" and (2) those that constantly doubt the sincerity of their conversion and then repeatedly run down the aisle at every altar call.

Be confident that your salvation is assured and live out a Christian life while striving to be Christ-like (sanctification).



As to the thief, had he not reached out to Jesus, no paradise would not be his. However, there was no need for interaction after that. Given that he wasn't long for the world, there was not much time for much of sanctification - in other words, he really didn't have the opportunity to live out a Christian life. His faith was in his heart, not in the worldly interaction. Honestly, I believe that he didn't need to utter a word - Christ knew his heart's desire.


To God be the Glory (verse 2):
O perfect redemption, the purchase of blood,
To every believer the promise of God;
The vilest offender who truly believes,
That moment from Jesus a pardon receives.

 

[2A_Tom]

Not entry works based. Means it is at least partially works based. So it is works based.

On a phone so please see, Ephesians 2:8-10.

Faith = Salvation

Not OF works.

A true believer will be known by his works.

James said, I will show YOU my faith by MY works.

YOU will know them by their works. God knows I am SAVED, you do not.