CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[foszoe]

Like I said, that was a new one on me. Baptists are becoming more Creedal. Especially the Reformed kinds. Like JK. But this comment was predestined to happen.

As is/was every Pittsburgh Penguin win/loss and championship

Kinda takes the fun out of it

 

[historian]

As is/was every Pittsburgh Penguin win/loss and championship

Kinda takes the fun out of it

Hopefully we'll get another one predestined this year!

 

[historian]

Wait - you mean Tradition can be relied upon? Thats. So. Cool.



(Hey Jetta, can I borrow your stick?)

Only if the Tradition can be found in the Bible!

I need that stick as well

 

[T.Lex]

So is this 1 stick with 3 branches? Or 3 branches all found in a single stick?

 

[historian]

So is this 1 stick with 3 branches? Or 3 branches all found in a single stick?

Perhaps it is two sticks with the third branching out from them? Or is the third stick branching out from only one stick?

 

[JettaKnight]

Well, going to a HDO (Holy Day of Obligation) isn't really a "work" work. Although, I am probably not in touch with the full meaning that Protestant churches ascribe to it.

Think of it this way, if I deliver food to the poor as part of outreach with my church, that's a work. I'm a sacrificing part of my day, probably some of my money, to do good work. I am only "obligated" in a generic sense to do good works.

Attending mass on an HDO is completely different. That's fulfilling a specific obligation.

Protestants break at in a rash whenever the thought of doing something in connection with salvation. Of course, the results are the same, doing good works, we just never, ever, ever associate it with salvation. Therefore, the word "obligation" is an anathema, especially if it's used like my ROTC officers uses the word "voluntary". Whatever good we do, is because Christ lives within us and directs our lives and we desire to follow him. Our salvation is guaranteed and secure - no matter how often we skip church.



Looking this HDO stuff up on Wikipedia...

Oh no... no... no, no, no...

there's that word again... "obliged".

Different days in different countries...
mass...
Immaculate conceptions...

(Hey Jetta, can I borrow your stick?)

GET YOUR OWN!


Oh, this year we have our own Holy Day - Reformation Day - 500 years!

 

[DragonGunner]

I have to ask what texts/evidence you are basing your beliefs on? From later in your post it seems you are saying scriptures only but would like to be sure.

By the Biblical account in Luke, we know that John was born in a city in Judah (Luke 1:39) and that Mary and Joseph were from Nazareth, a city in Galilee so its highly unlikely they were playmates. We also know from the Bible that John grew and and lived in the deserts until he was revealed. (Luke 1:80). We also know Jesus grew up in the city. (Luke 2:39,40; 51,52). Its extremely unlikely Jesus and John spent these years together. The only Biblical evidence about Jesus is he spent some time in Egypt, probably measured in years not days or weeks. 2-4 years maybe? Then we know that at 12 he is in Jerusalem. Jesus' next appearance is at his baptism.

As to John, Luke 3:1 tells us when his manifestion occurs. Which places Jesus Close to 30. So combining Luke 1:80 with Luke 3:1, I would find your narrative hard to follow from the Biblical texts alone.


You may have mean knew of him as in I know I have a cousin in West Virginia while I sit here in Indiana but I don't really know my cousin.

Your last sentence would be correct. No way John didn't know of him and his own story line with when Jesus was born….really can't imagine the parents not teaching and telling that in those days. How much if any meetings took place is guessing…..no way to know for sure. Only opinions.

 

[DragonGunner]

LOLWUT?

Are you claiming that John forsake Jesus simply because John didn't physically follow after him?

Are you claiming that imprisonment and death is a sign of lacking faith?

John lacked faith by sending his disciples to ask Jesus if he was Messiah, not sure where you got that confused.

His imprisonment and death had nothing to do with it….so no I'm not saying that.

Also Did not John lie….ALWAYS when asked if he was Elias he said NO I AM NOT. Elias must come before Christ but John kept telling them he was not Elias…..why? Grant it, perhaps he was not lying…perhaps he never after so long learned who he was or to be in the Lord. Jesus said Elias has come and it was indeed John…..John just never got it….regardless the Jews knew Elias must come before Christ….so how much of a fault was it on John in the death of Jesus? There must be a forerunner who was Elias before Christ came…..and here is John constantly saying….I am not Elias…..and Jesus saying John was Elias.

And before someone asks me if I'm saying John killed Jesus………the answer is no.

 

[Woobie]

Protestants break at in a rash whenever the thought of doing something in connection with salvation. Of course, the results are the same, doing good works, we just never, ever, ever associate it with salvation. Therefore, the word "obligation" is an anathema, especially if it's used like my ROTC officers uses the word "voluntary". Whatever good we do, is because Christ lives within us and directs our lives and we desire to follow him. Our salvation is guaranteed and secure - no matter how often we skip church.



Looking this HDO stuff up on Wikipedia...

Oh no... no... no, no, no...

there's that word again... "obliged".

Different days in different countries...
mass...
Immaculate conceptions...






GET YOUR OWN!


Oh, this year we have our own Holy Day - Reformation Day - 500 years!

Faith is evidenced by works, but faith is our sole contribution to salvation. The works, being only an evidence, are not of themselves the contribution. Good works are natural results of the fruits of the Spirit. Any good work performed is out of a loving servant's heart to the Master. The motivation behind the work then becomes as important as the work itself. The Pharisees prayed to be seen. Christians go to church to be seen.

To to put it another way, Faith is born out in works, not out of works.

 

[2A_Tom]

As for works:

Ephesians 2: 8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

As for Christ being crucified on Friday:

I suppose God made a mistake when He said

Matthew 12:40 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

As for Christmas, Easter &al:

I can't find any Bible reference for them so I'll leave them to you.

As for the last supper:

The Lords Supper is one of our two ordinances. We observe the Lords Supper monthly


1 Corinthians 11:23-26 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the [same] night in which he was betrayed took bread:
And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Since I mentioned ordinances Baptism:

Baptism follows belief. We Baptize Sunday morning and Sunday evening.

Acts 2:41 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 8:12 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.


Acts 8:13 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Acts 18:8 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

There were a few more things I can not remember.

 

[foszoe]

As for works:

Ephesians 2: 8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

As for Christ being crucified on Friday:

I suppose God made a mistake when He said

Matthew 12:40 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

How did the Jews in Jesus' time count their days? Does it differ from how we count our days? If so how? Were those who wrote the Gospels Jewish? Would they have reckoned time according to how the Jews did or in a manner such as we do?

What day, using the Bible only, was Jesus crucified on in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Finally John?

As for Christmas, Easter &al:

I can't find any Bible reference for them so I'll leave them to you.

I took this as a joke and it did make me laugh Not a single word of your post including the translation you quoted is "in" the Bible since it would have to be in Greek or Hebrew.

Seriously though, I usually do try and use a common language when I think I can to avoid confusion.

Orthodox don't call Christmas "Christmas". We call it the Nativity of our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ according to the Flesh. Or the Nativity for short and all those words are found in the Bible and many are in the biblical accounts of Christ's Birth.

As to Easter, we don't call Easter "Easter" either, we call it "Pascha" which is a Biblical word. We also call it the resurrection but that word appears in Jesus' dialogue with the Sadducees and the Epistles. I don't think it appears in the accounts of Jesus' own resurrection.

As for the last supper:

The Lords Supper is one of our two ordinances. We observe the Lords Supper monthly


1 Corinthians 11:23-26 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the [same] night in which he was betrayed took bread:
And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

In the spirit of joviality, I will just point out that nowhere in the Bible that I know of does it say to observe the Lord's Supper monthly.

 

[2A_Tom]

Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation for Passover.

Matthew 27:62 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,




Mark 15:42 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,




Luke 23:54 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Sabbath is normally the 7th day but is also used by the Jews for their High Holy days. Passover, Booths and Pentecost.




John 19:14 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!




John 19:31 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.




John 19:42 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

3 days and 3 nights.

So when was Jesus crucified?

Whatever day, He was on the cross all afternoon, He was taken down and prepared for burial just before sundown (traditional Jewish midnight). So he was in the grave all that night and the next day, the next night and day and the night and all day Saturday.

We will now name the days as we go. Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, buried on Thursday, Lay in the grave Thursday, Friday and Saturday and rose at midnight (sundown) on Sunday. The stone was not rolled away at sunrise for Him but for a testimony to believers and unbelievers alike.

At midnight He descended into lower parts of the earth and preached to the believers in captivity. At sunrise on His way to the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies in the Heaven of Heavens, leading captivity captive, He stopped to Greet Mary.

I did not say that the Bible says to observe the Lord's Supper every month, I simply stated our practice. The Bible says as oft as ye do, and that is "as oft as we do".

 

[foszoe]

Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation for Passover.

Matthew 27:62 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,




Mark 15:42 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,




Luke 23:54 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Sabbath is normally the 7th day but is also used by the Jews for their High Holy days. Passover, Booths and Pentecost.




John 19:14 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!




John 19:31 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.




John 19:42 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.



I did not say that the Bible says to observe the Lord's Supper every month, I simply stated our practice. The Bible says as oft as ye do, and that is "as oft as we do".

Thank you for your explanation.

Which day would the lambs be slaughtered for the Passover?

 

[ATM]

I was gonna say what about 1/0?

Then I remembered that people liked to argue about whether or not 0 is an integer, then I remembered that under your name was will argue for sammie and so I decided it would be better not to post anything.

Well, if you'd posted anything, I probably would have found something to argue about.

Next time...

Also, where'd all the agnostics go? I wasn't finished with them.

 

[JettaKnight]

Also, where'd all the agnostics go? I wasn't finished with them.

Still hung over from the Winter Solstice party?

 

[indiucky]

Still hung over from the Winter Solstice party?

Dancing around an Oak Tree always leaves me a little tuckered...

 

[2A_Tom]

Thank you for your explanation.

Which day would the lambs be slaughtered for the Passover?

Exodus 12:3-8
Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

 

[Alpo]

Well, if you'd posted anything, I probably would have found something to argue about.

Next time...

Also, where'd all the agnostics go? I wasn't finished with them.

They, by and large, have dispensed with you?

 

[foszoe]

Exodus 12:3-8
Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

And during the week that Christ died with that have been Wednesday Thursday Friday or Saturday that the Lambs were slaughtered?

 

[2A_Tom]

You know that Christ rose on Sunday. God says that He was in the grave for three days and three nights. The Jews count sun down as the beginning of the day. Passover is the fourteenth day of the first month. The Jews go by Lunar months of 28 days. Unlike their cousins the Ismaelites they add a month occasionally to make their year sync with the solar year. These are facts that can not be denied.

According to the available facts Passover was on Thursday the year that Christ died. Either that or God made a mistake.

Romans 3:4 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.