CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[JettaKnight]

There's small-t tradition, then there's "apostolic tradition." The latter is not "man-made" but given to the church by Christ Himself.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/apostolic-tradition

But apostolic tradition does not appear to be at the crux of what "non-traditional players" is. Whatever it is.

Nope. not going to bite on this one.


Edit: Well, second thought... I'm pretty sure that "apostolic tradition" refers to casseroles at potlucks.

 

[T.Lex]

Nope. not going to bite on this one.


Edit: Well, second thought... I'm pretty sure that "apostolic tradition" refers to casseroles at potlucks.

Are we really trying to take the "civil" out of this thread?

 

[HoughMade]

Are we really trying to take the "civil" out of this thread?

I think both Jetta and I are trying really hard not​ to.

 

[foszoe]

I get what you're saying, but let's ditch "traditional". Traditions change.

Let's go with "biblical".

Jews and Christians were Traditional before they were Biblical...

And thats 'Biblical

 

[T.Lex]

I think both Jetta and I are trying really hard not​ to.

Technically, I'm trying, too.

 

[foszoe]

If we are talking "morality", then tradition doesn't make anything moral or immoral.

What is traditional changes and can be, flat out, wrong.

What is Biblical does the same really.

Now that means someone will bring up Biblical essentials which, when deciding what is essential, really goes back to ones Tradition.

A Christian who believes the Bible predates Tradition is living in self delusion.

 

[HoughMade]

Jews and Christians were Traditional before they were Biblical...

And thats 'Biblical

Yes. They were, but now.....

(I'm not trying as hard as I should be)

 

[HoughMade]

What is Biblical does the same really.

Now that means someone will bring up Biblical essentials which, when deciding what is essential, really goes back to ones Tradition.

A Christian who believes the Bible predates Tradition is living in self delusion.

...and you're not trying at all.

 

[foszoe]

...and you're not trying at all.

I did use predates...the uncivil term would have been superceded, but I didnt use that one

 

[nonobaddog]

Define, "non-traditional players".
Do you mean blacks? Or women? or man-buns?
Seriously - who are you referring to?
And what do you define as a "pillar position"? Pontifex Maximus, or all the way down to a preschool nursery worker?

Well, if it ain't Biblical, then it ain't a valid proscription.
I know Foszoe would probably disagree, but traditions are man-made and should be used very carefully in these matters. If a particular church wants to hire a pastor that "is like them", then that's cool. I wouldn't be opposed to church wanting to hire a pastor that's a suit-and-tie guy because that's what they want. I do have a big problem when they say that no church should hire a jeans-and-Tshirt guy, because they've elevated traditions to the level of doctrine.

OK, reading this, I infer that it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject I presented: A pastor (married to one women with three children) that shared his attraction to other men to his congregation... and still meets all your qualifications of a "traditional church leader".
If I'm wrong, then please tell me how (and don't bring up this molestation nonsense again).

My response was a direct answer to your question in the first quote above. And you are right - of course it had nothing to do with your other scenario with the homo-attraction because it was not even referring to that. By the way I agree that your guy would meet all the qualifications of a traditional church leader.

I still think traditional is the best word to describe the church leaders I am talking about. The "biblical" church leaders were JC and the Disciples (and no, I don't mean the rock band). Today we are very low on disciples for church leaders but we do have a lot of traditional church leaders, leaders that have long standing characteristics and methods, some of which I have mentioned in the previous post.

Traditional is just a word with a definition that fits very well. It is irrelevant if traditions are man-made or not... or made from duck farts. If you have a problem with the word - whenever you see it just substitute "long standing characteristics and methods".

And speaking of elevating traditions to the level of doctrine - forget the suit and tie, surely you have seen some of the costumes worn by bishops, archbishops, cardinals, etc.

I also sincerely hope you are in the minority to classify molestation by church leaders as "nonsense". That is ridiculous.

 

[BugI02]

If one looks at data, and sees that the ratio of bad actors to good is roughly the same as in the population that can marry, then the wondering can be mitigated.



I'd disagree with "most." In my estimation, "most" relates back to the early traditions of the church, particularly in sequence and... "structure," I guess, for lack of a better word.

But doctrine/dogma has been more of a ... dialogue over the centuries.

Most sexual offenders against children are male. Females may account for 0.4% to 4% of convicted sexual offenders, and one study estimates a 10 to 1 ratio of male-to-female child molesters.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia section 6.1 Epidemiology

Since the GenPop is about 1:1 male to female, and the priesthood is only male, I think your estimation of the prevalence of pedophilia therein would be off by at least 2:1

 

[JettaKnight]

And speaking of elevating traditions to the level of doctrine - forget the suit and tie, surely you have seen some of the costumes worn by bishops, archbishops, cardinals, etc.

I'm Baptist, so it's suit and tie.

I also sincerely hope you are in the minority to classify molestation by church leaders as "nonsense". That is ridiculous.

By "nonsense", I'm meaning that you played that card like the race card - a way to denigrate organized religion by focusing on a very, very, small (but despicable) minority and attempting to paint others with a broad brush. You completely blindsided us by whipping it out. I guess that was a statement that churches need more oversight of their pastors. Might I suggest that the James MacDonald fiasco is a better example. (Don't know it? Buckle up and look it up... serious power trip).

We've gone over, and over, and over, about child molestation and none of us want to cover that subject again and there's no benefit to once again dredging it up. We all hate it, we all castigate anyone that is in any way complicit. We all agree that it requires amazing grace that only a perfect and holy God possesses to completely forgive such a vile offender.

Since the GenPop is about 1:1 male to female, and the priesthood is only male, I think your estimation of the prevalence of pedophilia therein would be off by at least 2:1

Et tu, Bugus?

Let's just assume that T.Lex's stats were adjusted for an apples-to-apples comparison.

 

[nonobaddog]

By "nonsense", I'm meaning that you played that card like the race card - a way to denigrate organized religion by focusing on a very, very, small (but despicable) minority and attempting to paint others with a broad brush. You completely blindsided us by whipping it out. I guess that was a statement that churches need more oversight of their pastors. Might I suggest that the James MacDonald fiasco is a better example. (Don't know it? Buckle up and look it up... serious power trip).

Maybe you read it that way but it was not written that way. That post did not denigrate organized religion, only a small portion. That post did not paint others with a broad brush. You seem to be reading a lot that was not written. It DID refer to the fact that churches too often have been guilty of ignoring, allowing and even covering up heinous behavior. (too often means more than zero times to me)

 

[BugI02]

Let's just assume that T.Lex's stats were adjusted for an apples-to-apples comparison.

But was it an Adam's apples-to- Adam's apples comparison?

If the GenPop is divided into two cohorts, one of which exhibits a characteristic at a rate 10X the other cohort, you cannot choose exclusively from the 10X cohort but claim the average rate over the entire population of that characteristic. The rate would be closer to the norm for the selection cohort, or possibly exceed it if you buy into the postulate that more individuals troubled by their proclivities might try to subsume them within the priesthood. When did you lose faith In Math?

 

[Dead Duck]

You know....
This is all Eve's fault. That *****!

 

[foszoe]

But was it an Adam's apples-to- Adam's apples comparison?

If the GenPop is divided into two cohorts, one of which exhibits a characteristic at a rate 10X the other cohort, you cannot choose exclusively from the 10X cohort but claim the average rate over the entire population of that characteristic. The rate would be closer to the norm for the selection cohort, or possibly exceed it if you buy into the postulate that more individuals troubled by their proclivities might try to subsume them within the priesthood. When did you lose faith In Math?

Do you have evidence to the contrary or tossing out an un-investigated possibility?

 

[BugI02]

Didn't the Greeks understand math? Oh well

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/tippling/2017/06/30/catholic-clergy-likely-paedophiles-general-public/
Are Catholic Clergy more Likely to Be Paedophiles than the General Public?


Via Media Bias/Fact check

LEAST BIASED


These sources have minimal bias and use very few loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes). The reporting is factual and usually sourced. These are the most credible media sources. See all Least Biased sources.


Overall, we rate Patheos Least Biased based on covering a wide range of topics that represent both the left and right. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to individual bloggers not always sourcing properly.

 

[foszoe]

So based on this study, gun law effectiveness in Australia can also generalize to the US.

Didn't the Greeks understand math? Oh well

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/tippling/2017/06/30/catholic-clergy-likely-paedophiles-general-public/
Are Catholic Clergy more Likely to Be Paedophiles than the General Public?


Via Media Bias/Fact check

LEAST BIASED


These sources have minimal bias and use very few loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes). The reporting is factual and usually sourced. These are the most credible media sources. See all Least Biased sources.


Overall, we rate Patheos Least Biased based on covering a wide range of topics that represent both the left and right. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to individual bloggers not always sourcing properly.

 

[foszoe]

To use the apples to apples language, is an accusation of pedophilia equivalent to being a pedophile ?

Didn't the Greeks understand math? Oh well

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/tippling/2017/06/30/catholic-clergy-likely-paedophiles-general-public/
Are Catholic Clergy more Likely to Be Paedophiles than the General Public?


Via Media Bias/Fact check

LEAST BIASED


These sources have minimal bias and use very few loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes). The reporting is factual and usually sourced. These are the most credible media sources. See all Least Biased sources.


Overall, we rate Patheos Least Biased based on covering a wide range of topics that represent both the left and right. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to individual bloggers not always sourcing properly.

 

[BugI02]

Did you also look at #4651? How about the Jay report? More importantly, are the numbers you wish to use, representing their prevalence in the population in question, based on accusation or conviction? Note that the wiki figures were for convictions, the numbers for prevalance are undoubtedly higher. If you have two bags each with 100 balls in them, and in one bag there are 10 red balls and 90 white and in the other there is one red ball and 99 white; if you draw solely from the bag with ten red balls are the odds higher that any given draw will be red? How much higher for any number of selections you care to execute?

This from a professor at Catholic University of America. It is included as an alternate source of quantification. Assuming he is a less hostile investigator. There is also a rather dense study out there by NIH/NCBI

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3276082
Is Catholic Clergy Sex Abuse Related to Homosexual Priests?

So, would you still like to question my supposition that the prevalence of pedophile priests is likely to be at least twice that of the general population? If so, show your work