CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[HoughMade]

...And what percentage of molesters is acceptable to you?

 

[T.Lex]

Even within the clergy of those religions that forbid marriage (look at me going out of my way), the percentage of molesters is tiny...but well publicized.

One wonders if a higher percentage confused, abused, damaged, not interested in girls, young men trying to deal with certain urges might turn to the priesthood in hopes that it will solve all their problems...only to discover that it's not quite that simple.

If one looks at data, and sees that the ratio of bad actors to good is roughly the same as in the population that can marry, then the wondering can be mitigated.

I mean, most of your weekly practice is a direct result of the Reformation. The mass, the confessional, and a ton of other things are part of Tridentine Council (a.k.a. why J.K. is a heretic). I mean, most of the Mary stuff comes from the "spiritualists" who were running around in the pre-reformation RCC and the need for the church to co-opt them into the formal church rather than brand them as heretics.

I'd disagree with "most." In my estimation, "most" relates back to the early traditions of the church, particularly in sequence and... "structure," I guess, for lack of a better word.

But doctrine/dogma has been more of a ... dialogue over the centuries.

 

[foszoe]

Let's agree that the church could be a lot more receptive when it comes to people struggling with this.


In a whole a lot of churches, if the pastor, who's married and has three children, would say on Sunday, "I'm struggling because I'm attracted to men", he'd be looking for a new job on Monday.

"The church"...."a whole lot of churches"

Made me LOL. Seriously! I was sitting here on my tractor waiting for my generator to be delivered and that tickled my funny bone.

 

[foszoe]

Child molesters are vile human beings.

Even child molesters are not beyond God's grace.

We just had the gospel in which Jesus spent time with the people of his time who were considered the worst of sinners.

Channelling my inner Martin Luther. ...name me one non-vile human being

 

[nonobaddog]

But should the church(es) be more receptive to personal aberrations or should they strive to be the traditional moral compass of yore?

 

[HoughMade]

But should the church(es) be more receptive to personal aberrations or should they strive to be the traditional moral compass of yore?

Receptive to sinners?

I'm going to vote "yes".

 

[nonobaddog]

Receptive to sinners?

I'm going to vote "yes".

Yeah, that is kind of a core principal. I was referring more to church leaders and the church(es) loosening morals and wider acceptance of non-traditional players in pillar positions.

 

[Dead Duck]

Channelling my inner Martin Luther. ...name me one non-vile human being

Oh he was very musical...
Didn't Martin Luther play the vile-lin or something?

 

[Dead Duck]

Yeah, that is kind of a core principal. I was referring more to church leaders and the church(es) loosening morals and wider acceptance of non-traditional players in pillar positions.

Oh, you mean Presbyterians.

 

[nonobaddog]

Oh, you mean Presbyterians.

Good one!

 

[JettaKnight]

Yeah, that is kind of a core principal. I was referring more to church leaders and the church(es) loosening morals and wider acceptance of non-traditional players in pillar positions.

Define, "non-traditional players".

Do you mean blacks? Or women? or man-buns?



Seriously - who are you referring to?

And what do you define as a "pillar position"? Pontifex Maximus, or all the way down to a preschool nursery worker?

 

[nonobaddog]

Traditional means long standing characteristics and methods, non-traditional is everything else.

You can have your own definition of traditional if you want but my definition of a traditional church leader has nothing to do with their race or sex (with the exception of Roman Catholics where traditional meant male for a long time). It does have to do with their behavior and morality. They were focused on religion and their church and family (meaning male husband, female wife and assorted spawn). They had high moral standards meaning they didn't tell lies, they treated others well and they were reliable and always willing to help. They ran their church, gave sermons, gave religious counseling and organized some wholesome church activities depending on their talents - like sports, choirs, music, camps, bake sales, car washes, etc. They were an example of clean living for their community.

They did not get involved in politics or protests or church financial ripoffs or f**king people in the a**hole or using the Lord's name in vain to curse our country or selling drugs or join violent motorcycle gangs.

Seriously, that is traditional. I am sure others can expand or modify to their own taste. I didn't realize it needed much explanation.

 

[HoughMade]

I get what you're saying, but let's ditch "traditional". Traditions change.

Let's go with "biblical".

 

[nonobaddog]

I think traditional fits well, in fact better than biblical which implies a more ancient time and certainly things have changed more since biblical than they have since traditional.

 

[Dead Duck]

I get what you're saying, but let's ditch "traditional". Traditions change.

Let's go with "biblical".

I'll go for getting back to the basics.

Wait, do the men have to wear dresses to church again?

 

[T.Lex]

I'll go for getting back to the basics.

Wait, do the men have to wear dresses to church again?

Its 2019.

I'm not even sure you need to ask that.

 

[JettaKnight]

I think traditional fits well, in fact better than biblical which implies a more ancient time and certainly things have changed more since biblical than they have since traditional.

Well, if it ain't Biblical, then it ain't a valid proscription.

I know Foszoe would probably disagree, but traditions are man-made and should be used very carefully in these matters. If a particular church wants to hire a pastor that "is like them", then that's cool. I wouldn't be opposed to church wanting to hire a pastor that's a suit-and-tie guy because that's what they want. I do have a big problem when they say that no church should hire a jeans-and-Tshirt guy, because they've elevated traditions to the level of doctrine.

Traditional means long standing characteristics and methods, non-traditional is everything else.

You can have your own definition of traditional if you want but my definition of a traditional church leader has nothing to do with their race or sex (with the exception of Roman Catholics where traditional meant male for a long time). It does have to do with their behavior and morality. They were focused on religion and their church and family (meaning male husband, female wife and assorted spawn). They had high moral standards meaning they didn't tell lies, they treated others well and they were reliable and always willing to help. They ran their church, gave sermons, gave religious counseling and organized some wholesome church activities depending on their talents - like sports, choirs, music, camps, bake sales, car washes, etc. They were an example of clean living for their community.

They did not get involved in politics or protests or church financial ripoffs or f**king people in the a**hole or using the Lord's name in vain to curse our country or selling drugs or join violent motorcycle gangs.

Seriously, that is traditional. I am sure others can expand or modify to their own taste. I didn't realize it needed much explanation.

OK, reading this, I infer that it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject I presented: A pastor (married to one women with three children) that shared his attraction to other men to his congregation... and still meets all your qualifications of a "traditional church leader".



If I'm wrong, then please tell me how (and don't bring up this molestation nonsense again).

 

[HoughMade]

I think traditional fits well, in fact better than biblical which implies a more ancient time and certainly things have changed more since biblical than they have since traditional.

If we are talking "morality", then tradition doesn't make anything moral or immoral.

What is traditional changes and can be, flat out, wrong.

 

[T.Lex]

There's small-t tradition, then there's "apostolic tradition." The latter is not "man-made" but given to the church by Christ Himself.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/apostolic-tradition

But apostolic tradition does not appear to be at the crux of what "non-traditional players" is. Whatever it is.

 

[HoughMade]

...But apostolic tradition does not appear to be at the crux of what "non-traditional players" is. Whatever it is.

Seeing as how that seems to be the case, I'll spare us all the Protestant/Evangelical position on this.