CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[T.Lex]

I'm not sure where you are going to get more information about Christ other than the bible.

I can't imagine an omnipotent God being limited to what humans can read.

 

[rvb]

I'm not sure where you are going to get more information about Christ other than the bible.

If I sent you a book of information about your spouse, would you truly know them based on that document?

If I sent you a manual on how to shoot a new gun, would you truly know how to shoot from reading it, or is some personal experience and time spent with that gun necessary?

I'm certainly not trying to minimize the Bible, and I don't think foszoe is either, but Christianity is a relationship, is it not? It's more than reading the manual and learning the information. A person could become a Bible scholar and never believe, couldn't they? Just as I could send you a book of information about your spouse and you wouldn't love them based on that alone.

I also believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. Doesn't mean I, or any mortal, totally comprehend or can explain it all. All will be revealed and all I am doing is 1) trying to live as Christ tells me to (but failing as humans do) and 2) looking forward to the trumpet call....

For many of these debates I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. For instance, I fully believe John 3:16, where if you believe you will have eternal life. I also believe Matthew 25:40 that faith without good works is not living a Christ-filled life; as believers we are expected to treat "the least of these brothers and sisters" a certain way. Faith in Christ yields good works and He will be able to tell the believers from the non-believers based on them; works without a faith in Christ are a "good thing" but will not get one into an eternity with God.

Trying to weave Boolean logic through different parts/books of the Bible creates this confusion, and this division. It's why I liked foszoe's post above that we are to follow Christ. We aren't to worship the Bible any more than we are to worship an icon of Mary. But we can use the Bible to help guide us and teach us, just as we can use an icon of Mary to remind us of the miracle of the virgin birth and Mary's faith.

all just my 2c,

-rvb

 

[Benp]

I can't imagine an omnipotent God being limited to what humans can read.

I don't think this limits God, but there is information in the bible that God wants us to know otherwise why would He have preserved it?

 

[T.Lex]

I don't think this limits God, but there is information in the bible that God wants us to know otherwise why would He have preserved it?

Ok, yeah. That's a different thing.

The Bible undeniably contains information about God, presented in multiple formats and prepared for multiple audiences. Integrating all of them (or at least the effort to do so) is a great way to learn about God.

But, it is not the only way, and shouldn't be the only way, IMHO.

 

[Benp]

If I sent you a book of information about your spouse, would you truly know them based on that document?

If I sent you a manual on how to shoot a new gun, would you truly know how to shoot from reading it, or is some personal experience and time spent with that gun necessary?

I'm certainly not trying to minimize the Bible, and I don't think foszoe is either, but Christianity is a relationship, is it not? It's more than reading the manual and learning the information. A person could become a Bible scholar and never believe, couldn't they? Just as I could send you a book of information about your spouse and you wouldn't love them based on that alone.

I also believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. Doesn't mean I, or any mortal, totally comprehend or can explain it all. All will be revealed and all I am doing is 1) trying to live as Christ tells me to (but failing as humans do) and 2) looking forward to the trumpet call....

For many of these debates I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. For instance, I fully believe John 3:16, where if you believe you will have eternal life. I also believe Matthew 25:40 that faith without good works is not living a Christ-filled life; as believers we are expected to treat "the least of these brothers and sisters" a certain way. Faith in Christ yields good works and He will be able to tell the believers from the non-believers based on them; works without a faith in Christ are a "good thing" but will not get one into an eternity with God.

Trying to weave Boolean logic through different parts/books of the Bible creates this confusion, and this division. It's why I liked foszoe's post above that we are to follow Christ. We aren't to worship the Bible any more than we are to worship an icon of Mary. But we can use the Bible to help guide us and teach us, just as we can use an icon of Mary to remind us of the miracle of the virgin birth and Mary's faith.

all just my 2c,

-rvb

A book about my spouse would have been handy. Still would be actually.
A manual on a new gun would answer some questions that would have before trying to operate it, though I understand what you are saying that actually firing the weapon and spending time with it would make you more familiar with it.
Christianity is definitely a relationship, but if we are to follow the teachings of Christ and follow His examples, then we need to know what He did, what He did, and how He reacted to things - which we learn from the bible. Other than Christ being here and answering our questions and showing us things in person - the bible is the living word of God.

I don't see how someone can say that they follow in Christ footsteps (at least attempting to) without knowing what Christ did. We can't go along just doing what we think is right because "There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death." - Prov 14:12 nor can we just follow our hearts "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it?" -Jeremiah 17:9

Reading the bible alone is not the answer, but it's definitely part of the answer. Follow Christ, but use the bible to keep you on the right road. Don't go by what other people say is in the bible, we have to look for ourselves.

 

[Benp]

Ok, yeah. That's a different thing.

The Bible undeniably contains information about God, presented in multiple formats and prepared for multiple audiences. Integrating all of them (or at least the effort to do so) is a great way to learn about God.

But, it is not the only way, and shouldn't be the only way, IMHO.

I agree

 

[indiucky]

 

[indiucky]

I can't imagine an omnipotent God being limited to what humans can read.

And I ponder what was the literacy rate was among the people at that time?

 

[foszoe]

So Baby Jesus didn't honor his father and mother?

Hmm

 

[foszoe]

Or the availability until the printing press

And I ponder what was the literacy rate was among the people at that time?

 

[indiucky]

Or the availability until the printing press

I often, when discussing with non believers, bring this up.....They'll mention the Gospels being written down 30 to 70 years after the events and I will say, "Writing them down for whom exactly????? Who read back then??? Where was the Booksamillion?"

I am a nerdy history geek so one of my favorite lines in the New Testament is Luke's first verses.....

[FONT=&quot]1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.[/FONT]

 

[Ziggidy]

Interesting discussion. I am not going to jump in the discussion, but I do want to share this. How did they know who Jesus was? Acts 9 was mentioned - how did they know?

My parents had me baptized when I was 5 y/o, in a catholic church just so I could attend their school. 9 years I attended and was introduced to Christ daily. Learned latin for mass (altar boy) and at one time I thought about the seminary. Both my parents were non-practicing episcopalians (I learned that just a few years ago). I lived in a godless home, so to speak. I was a good catholic, even after leaving the school to attend public high school. I was married in a catholic church and my wife's family were definitely catholic, at least most of them. My son was raised catholic although did not attend a catholic school. My wife did make sure Jesus was very obvious in our home.

Why am I saying all this? Because Acts 9 reminded me of a very special day that occurred exactly 25 years ago, today. I had an experience very much like Saul's.

We moved from Illinois at that time and lived in Evansville. My son made some friends and they invited him to their teen group. My son became involved, very active in their teen group. He kept asking me to go to church, I keep saying no. All I could imagine is people waving their hands making noise....ya know, like you see on TV. I wanted no part of it. I was catholic, I knew who Jesus was....so I refused repeatedly. Christmas was coming up and he kept nagging on me to go, I kept say in no. He told me he was going to be in the Christmas play and he wanted me to go. I never refused to support him in that way, so I sucked it up and said yes.

"Love Came Down" was the name of the play. December 18, 1993 I went to church and watched a play. After the play, Pastor Troy Boulware spoke and gave an alter call - and I responded; my life changed.

My point is this. As quickly as I raised my hand, something changed in my life; sort of (in a slight way) it was like Saul's experience. All of a sudden, I knew. All of a sudden it was like Jesus Christ, where have you been? How does that happen? It's a miracle. I do not have an eloquent vocabulary that can express what I felt and feel since that day.
Very much like Saul. Not a flash of anything like that, but it was like my heart was rewired and my I had an understanding of who Christ was. That was the start of my journey.

One can go through their entire life knowing who Christ is, but like Jesus told Nicodemus, you must be born again to experience Him in His fullness.

Thanks for listening. BTW, church plays are not so much for the entertainment but it is an opportunity for someone to change their eternal destiny. Invite someone to church.

 

[Bartman]

I often, when discussing with non believers, bring this up.....They'll mention the Gospels being written down 30 to 70 years after the events and I will say, "Writing them down for whom exactly????? Who read back then??? Where was the Booksamillion?"

I am a nerdy history geek so one of my favorite lines in the New Testament is Luke's first verses.....

[FONT=&amp]1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.[/FONT]

I've had this thought myself. So as time moved on and the bulk of Christendom grows more literate and books become more available, believers probably came to a point where they weren't satisfied hearing 3 readings from the Bible every Sunday and wanted to read more of it themselves. This leads me to believe that the Protestant Reformation might have been God's will. It became a way for people who weren't satisfied with the "because we said so" answer from the more orthodox faith, to continue to have a relationship with God based on their understanding of the scriptures.

No offense meant to, well, two of you off the top of my head. But I think as more and more people read the Bible, it was inevitable that other interpretations would be formed.

 

[Dead Duck]

I've had this thought myself. So as time moved on and the bulk of Christendom grows more literate and books become more available, believers probably came to a point where they weren't satisfied hearing 3 readings from the Bible every Sunday and wanted to read more of it themselves. This leads me to believe that the Protestant Reformation might have been God's will. It became a way for people who weren't satisfied with the "because we said so" answer from the more orthodox faith, to continue to have a relationship with God based on their understanding of the scriptures.

No offense meant to, well, two of you off the top of my head. But I think as more and more people read the Bible, it was inevitable that other interpretations would be formed.

You mean.....

The Truth!

 

[T.Lex]

I actually agree with this part:

This leads me to believe that the Protestant Reformation might have been God's will.

But not really for this reason.

It became a way for people who weren't satisfied with the "because we said so" answer from the more orthodox faith, to continue to have a relationship with God based on their understanding of the scriptures.

Well, sorta. The Roman church had many MANY issues. Somewhat like the prodigal son, it was not behaving correctly. The divisions are, IMHO, the lasting taint of that sinfulness.

I do think the RCC, as an institution, returned/is returning to God. It is a process, not a destination, though.

I also agree that different interpretations would be expected as more and more people read the Bible. But there's also the corresponding increase in risk of heresies. I absolutely do not believe that human understanding of the Bible and God was frozen at some arbitrary point in the past. I think there are still revelations (small "r") to be discovered, epiphanies to be had.

But the greater church provides the mechanism to winnow the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Bartman]

I don't see it as a taint or a heresy. I see it as a way for Christ's church to be more inclusive, for lack of a better word. That doesn't mean some people haven't lost their way. I see evidence of that on the Internet all the time.

And I never made any claim for this idea being The Truth. I haven't been going to church long enough for that. More of a way of looking at it where we can all be under the same umbrella rather than my side v. your side.

I made the point of increased literacy because in a way I see that as a sign of society, or the church militant if you will, maturing as time passes. When that happens, the explanation for why your opinion is the correct one needs to be more sophisticated. And another thing I see on the net is a lot of simple arguments being made - though not necessarily here.

 

[foszoe]

I'm not sure where you are going to get more information about Christ other than the bible.

Having a relationship with Jesus.

 

[foszoe]

I don't think this limits God, but there is information in the bible that God wants us to know otherwise why would He have preserved it?

By preserving it through the Church, God also preserved how the Bible should be understood.

 

[foszoe]

A book about my spouse would have been handy. Still would be actually.
A manual on a new gun would answer some questions that would have before trying to operate it, though I understand what you are saying that actually firing the weapon and spending time with it would make you more familiar with it.
Christianity is definitely a relationship, but if we are to follow the teachings of Christ and follow His examples, then we need to know what He did, what He did, and how He reacted to things - which we learn from the bible. Other than Christ being here and answering our questions and showing us things in person - the bible is the living word of God.

I don't see how someone can say that they follow in Christ footsteps (at least attempting to) without knowing what Christ did. We can't go along just doing what we think is right because "There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death." - Prov 14:12 nor can we just follow our hearts "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it?" -Jeremiah 17:9

Reading the bible alone is not the answer, but it's definitely part of the answer. Follow Christ, but use the bible to keep you on the right road. Don't go by what other people say is in the bible, we have to look for ourselves.

Those scriptures and examples are exactly why you shouldn't trust yourself to interpret the Bible correctly. Believing the Holy Spirit will keep an individual from error means one is either living in self deception or will be.

 

[Benp]

Those scriptures and examples are exactly why you shouldn't trust yourself to interpret the Bible correctly. Believing the Holy Spirit will keep an individual from error means one is either living in self deception or will be.

ok