CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[Benp]

What is God? What is Jesus? What is the Holy Spirit?

I ask because I am not fully understanding your position or explanation; or how you get to you conclusion.

There are two spirit beings who have always existed: God the Father and the Word. The Holy Spirit is the power by which they do things, not a separate being.
Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God (Elohim)..." "Elohim" is plural, so we know that "God" is referencing more than one being, it's actually referencing the "God" family.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This is stating that the Word is separate from God the Father, but they are unified in thought and not divided - They think similarly and are as one in this regard.

 

[T.Lex]

The true nature/relationship is a mystery. I think God has tried different strategies to explain it to us over the years, but ultimately it is an individual acceptance of the parts that "make sense" and an article of faith about those parts that "don't make sense."

To what extent one personhood proceeds or not is far less important (IMHO) than the acceptance that there is one God.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

 

[CampingJosh]

There are two spirit beings who have always existed: God the Father and the Word. The Holy Spirit is the power by which they do things, not a separate being.

Jesus sure spoke of the Spirit as one would speak of a person. John 14:15ff.

 

[historian]

Great...how many fingers to we cross ourselves with?

 

[Dead Duck]

Great...how many fingers to we cross ourselves with?

Check the bible.
I'm sure it's in there.

 

[foszoe]

Yeah don't let anyone near you ever think for a moment you could be a Christian. Don't want to make THEM uncomfortable.

Check the bible.
I'm sure it's in there.

 

[JettaKnight]

The Holy Spirit isn't a being, it's the power of God. If we use it to help us make good decisions and good choices then it will be healthy and then if we ask for more of it then God will give us more. If we do not use what we have then God will not give us more because we are not even using the small portion.
When I mention "being" of course I'm talking about spirit beings. Two separate entities, but with similar minds and thoughts - so much so they are as one, but they are separate.

There are two spirit beings who have always existed: God the Father and the Word. The Holy Spirit is the power by which they do things, not a separate being.
Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God (Elohim)..." "Elohim" is plural, so we know that "God" is referencing more than one being, it's actually referencing the "God" family.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This is stating that the Word is separate from God the Father, but they are unified in thought and not divided - They think similarly and are as one in this regard.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...

Am I really seeing an argument against the trinity?! Time for some pneumatology in this thread.

[video=youtube;eBRpeq9dVe4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBRpeq9dVe4[/video]

 

[foszoe]

I'd mostly be happier if all the people telling me what isn't in The Bible were doing what they say is.

 

[T.Lex]

Well, the whole "is it in the Bible" thing can be confusing.

So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

 

[foszoe]

It's a classical position. The Protestant take out Parts in the Bible the Catholic and the Orthodox add to the Bible. What you believe depends on which Camp you are in .

Well, the whole "is it in the Bible" thing can be confusing.

 

[foszoe]

Colossians 1:16. How do you understand that verse?

There are two spirit beings who have always existed: God the Father and the Word. The Holy Spirit is the power by which they do things, not a separate being.
Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God (Elohim)..." "Elohim" is plural, so we know that "God" is referencing more than one being, it's actually referencing the "God" family.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This is stating that the Word is separate from God the Father, but they are unified in thought and not divided - They think similarly and are as one in this regard.

 

[Benp]

Colossians 1:16. How do you understand that verse?

The Word, who became Christ, is being referenced. He is the one who created everything. He is the one who head of the church. He is the one people interacted with in the old testament. He was the one who wrestled with Jacob and who passed by and Moses saw His back.
John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

Christ also says "You have never heard His voice nor seen His form" - John 5:37
This can only be possible if Christ was the one who was seen and heard.
God the Father was instrumental in everything, but it was the Word who actually created everything and interacted with people.

 

[JettaKnight]

The Holy Spirit isn't a being, it's the power of God. If we use it to help us make good decisions and good choices then it will be healthy and then if we ask for more of it then God will give us more. If we do not use what we have then God will not give us more because we are not even using the small portion.
When I mention "being" of course I'm talking about spirit beings. Two separate entities, but with similar minds and thoughts - so much so they are as one, but they are separate.

How does that square with you're past statement:

I would not say that He doubted. He asked God that if there was any way that He could avoid what He was about to endure then please make it so, otherwise He would accept what He needed to do. I wouldn't call that doubt.

 

[Benp]

How does that square with you're past statement:

I don't think that contradicts anything. Christ was here to die for our sins, but He also was an example of how we should be. This was giving us an example of asking God for what we want, but accepting what God gives us.

 

[NKBJ]

From the trunews website, testimony from a present day Christian pastor under communism.

“On the basis of the teachings of the Bible and the mission of the gospel, I respect the authorities God has established in China. For God deposes kings and raises up kings. This is why I submit to the historical and institutional arrangements of God in China.
“As a pastor of a Christian church, I have my own understanding and views, based on the Bible, about what righteous order and good government is. At the same time, I am filled with anger and disgust at the persecution of the church by this Communist regime, at the wickedness of their depriving people of the freedoms of religion and of conscience. But changing social and political institutions is not the mission I have been called to, and it is not the goal for which God has given his people the gospel.
“For all hideous realities, unrighteous politics, and arbitrary laws manifest the cross of Jesus Christ, the only means by which every Chinese person must be saved. They also manifest the fact that true hope and a perfect society will never be found in the transformation of any earthly institution or culture but only in our sins being freely forgiven by Christ and in the hope of eternal life.
“As a pastor, my firm belief in the gospel, my teaching, and my rebuking of all evil proceeds from Christ’s command in the gospel and from the unfathomable love of that glorious King. Every man’s life is extremely short, and God fervently commands the church to lead and call any man to repentance who is willing to repent. Christ is eager and willing to forgive all who turn from their sins. This is the goal of all the efforts of the church in China—to testify to the world about our Christ, to testify to the Middle Kingdom about the Kingdom of Heaven, to testify to earthly, momentary lives about heavenly, eternal life. This is also the pastoral calling that I have received.
“For this reason, I accept and respect the fact that this Communist regime has been allowed by God to rule temporarily. As the Lord’s servant John Calvin said, wicked rulers are the judgment of God on a wicked people, the goal being to urge God’s people to repent and turn again toward Him. For this reason, I am joyfully willing to submit myself to their enforcement of the law as though submitting to the discipline and training of the Lord.
“At the same time, I believe that this Communist regime’s persecution against the church is a greatly wicked, unlawful action. As a pastor of a Christian church, I must denounce this wickedness openly and severely. The calling that I have received requires me to use non-violent methods to disobey those human laws that disobey the Bible and God. My Savior Christ also requires me to joyfully bear all costs for disobeying wicked laws.
“But this does not mean that my personal disobedience and the disobedience of the church is in any sense “fighting for rights” or political activism in the form of civil disobedience, because I do not have the intention of changing any institutions or laws of China. As a pastor, the only thing I care about is the disruption of man’s sinful nature by this faithful disobedience and the testimony it bears for the cross of Christ.
“As a pastor, my disobedience is one part of the gospel commission. Christ’s great commission requires of us great disobedience. The goal of disobedience is not to change the world but to testify about another world.
“For the mission of the church is only to be the church and not to become a part of any secular institution. From a negative perspective, the church must separate itself from the world and keep itself from being institutionalized by the world. From a positive perspective, all acts of the church are attempts to prove to the world the real existence of another world. The Bible teaches us that, in all matters relating to the gospel and human conscience, we must obey God and not men. For this reason, spiritual disobedience and bodily suffering are both ways we testify to another eternal world and to another glorious King.
“This is why I am not interested in changing any political or legal institutions in China. I’m not even interested in the question of when the Communist regime’s policies persecuting the church will change. Regardless of which regime I live under now or in the future, as long as the secular government continues to persecute the church, violating human consciences that belong to God alone, I will continue my faithful disobedience. For the entire commission God has given me is to let more Chinese people know through my actions that the hope of humanity and society is only in the redemption of Christ, in the supernatural, gracious sovereignty of God.
“If God decides to use the persecution of this Communist regime against the church to help more Chinese people to despair of their futures, to lead them through a wilderness of spiritual disillusionment and through this to make them know Jesus, if through this he continues disciplining and building up his church, then I am joyfully willing to submit to God’s plans, for his plans are always benevolent and good.
“Precisely because none of my words and actions are directed toward seeking and hoping for societal and political transformation, I have no fear of any social or political power. For the Bible teaches us that God establishes governmental authorities in order to terrorize evildoers, not to terrorize doers of good. If believers in Jesus do no wrong then they should not be afraid of dark powers. Even though I am often weak, I firmly believe this is the promise of the gospel. It is what I’ve devoted all of my energy to. It is the good news that I am spreading throughout Chinese society.
“I also understand that this happens to be the very reason why the Communist regime is filled with fear at a church that is no longer afraid of it.
“If I am imprisoned for a long or short period of time, if I can help reduce the authorities’ fear of my faith and of my Savior, I am very joyfully willing to help them in this way. But I know that only when I renounce all the wickedness of this persecution against the church and use peaceful means to disobey, will I truly be able to help the souls of the authorities and law enforcement. I hope God uses me, by means of first losing my personal freedom, to tell those who have deprived me of my personal freedom that there is an authority higher than their authority, and that there is a freedom that they cannot restrain, a freedom that fills the church of the crucified and risen Jesus Christ.
“Regardless of what crime the government charges me with, whatever filth they fling at me, as long as this charge is related to my faith, my writings, my comments, and my teachings, it is merely a lie and temptation of demons. I categorically deny it. I will serve my sentence, but I will not serve the law. I will be executed, but I will not plead guilty.
“Moreover, I must point out that persecution against the Lord’s church and against all Chinese people who believe in Jesus Christ is the most wicked and the most horrendous evil of Chinese society. This is not only a sin against Christians. It is also a sin against all non-Christians. For the government is brutally and ruthlessly threatening them and hindering them from coming to Jesus. There is no greater wickedness in the world than this.
“If this regime is one day overthrown by God, it will be for no other reason than God’s righteous punishment and revenge for this evil. For on earth, there has only ever been a thousand-year church. There has never been a thousand-year government. There is only eternal faith. There is no eternal power.
“Those who lock me up will one day be locked up by angels. Those who interrogate me will finally be questioned and judged by Christ. When I think of this, the Lord fills me with a natural compassion and grief toward those who are attempting to and actively imprisoning me. Pray that the Lord would use me, that he would grant me patience and wisdom, that I might take the gospel to them.
“Separate me from my wife and children, ruin my reputation, destroy my life and my family – the authorities are capable of doing all of these things. However, no one in this world can force me to renounce my faith; no one can make me change my life; and no one can raise me from the dead.
“And so, respectable officers, stop committing evil. This is not for my benefit but rather for yours and your children’s. I plead earnestly with you to stay your hands, for why should you be willing to pay the price of eternal damnation in hell for the sake of a lowly sinner such as I?
“Jesus is the Christ, son of the eternal, living God. He died for sinners and rose to life for us. He is my king and the king of the whole earth yesterday, today, and forever. I am his servant, and I am imprisoned because of this. I will resist in meekness those who resist God, and I will joyfully violate all laws that violate God’s laws.”
Wang also wrote the following appendix that further explains what constitutes faithful disobedience:
“I firmly believe that the Bible has not given any branch of any government the authority to run the church or to interfere with the faith of Christians. Therefore, the Bible demands that I, through peaceable means, in meek resistance and active forbearance, filled with joy, resist all administrative policies and legal measures that oppress the church and interfere with the faith of Christians.
“I firmly believe this is a spiritual act of disobedience. In modern authoritarian regimes that persecute the church and oppose the gospel, spiritual disobedience is an inevitable part of the gospel movement.
“I firmly believe that spiritual disobedience is an act of the last times; it is a witness to God’s eternal kingdom in the temporal kingdom of sin and evil. Disobedient Christians follow the example of the crucified Christ by walking the path of the cross. Peaceful disobedience is the way in which we love the world as well as the way in which we avoid becoming part of the world.
“I firmly believe that in carrying out spiritual disobedience, the Bible demands me to rely on the grace and resurrection power of Christ, that I must respect and not overstep two boundaries.
“The first boundary is that of the heart. Love toward the soul, and not hatred toward the body, is the motivation of spiritual disobedience. Transformation of the soul, and not the changing of circumstances, is the aim of spiritual disobedience. At any time, if external oppression and violence rob me of inner peace and endurance, so that my heart begins to breed hatred and bitterness toward those who persecute the church and abuse Christians, then spiritual disobedience fails at that point.
“The second boundary is that of behavior. The gospel demands that disobedience of faith must be non-violent. The mystery of the gospel lies in actively suffering, even being willing to endure unrighteous punishment, as a substitute for physical resistance. Peaceful disobedience is the result of love and forgiveness. The cross means being willing to suffer when one does not have to suffer.
“For Christ had limitless ability to fight back, yet he endured all of the humility and hurt. The way that Christ resisted the world that resisted him was by extending an olive branch of peace on the cross to the world that crucified him.
“I firmly believe that Christ has called me to carry out this faithful disobedience through a life of service, under this regime that opposes the gospel and persecutes the church. This is the means by which I preach the gospel, and it is the mystery of the gospel which I preach.”

With leadership like that no wonder the faster growing churches are in red China.

 

[JettaKnight]

I don't think that contradicts anything. Christ was here to die for our sins, but He also was an example of how we should be. This was giving us an example of asking God for what we want, but accepting what God gives us.

In other words, they're different people, with different minds, doing different things.

 

[JettaKnight]

From the trunews website, testimony from a present day Christian pastor under communism.


With leadership like that no wonder the faster growing churches are in red China.

These are two lines I read.

Maybe a link would be good instead of a massive ctrl+C ctrl+V of copyrighted text.


And yes, it's amazing what the Lord is doing in China.

 

[Ziggidy]

Long read.

I am not sure what its meant by "present day" Christian pastor; as opposed to?

 

[JettaKnight]

Long read.

I am not sure what its meant by "present day" Christian pastor; as opposed to?

The days of closed Communism where churches were banned.