CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[JettaKnight]

 

[GTM]

As you celebrate this Christmas season, rest in the fact that our Savior has come into this world and our lives to heal every messy, doubting, sinful part of us. There is nothing a repentant heart has done that will permanently push God away from it. And there is nothing that you have done that he has not already helped someone else through, someone else who is considered a saint.

That made checking INGO worth the effort.

 

[Benp]

I must confess (IKR) that I am uncomfortable still with the church (any church) as intercessor between myself and God.

Christ is our intercessor between us and God, not a church. The church's function isn't to save people or convert people. The function of the church is to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God as well as teaching the word of God. It should be a safe place for like-minded people to go to edify each other and support one another. Philippians 2:12 says to work out our own salvation. We have no one to blame but ourselves. Not even Christ calls people, God the Father does the calling. It is up to the person being called as to if they answer or not.

My personal experience has been such that the spirit was working in me long before I committed to Christ, and it is still working within me. I am a work in progress.

The Holy Spirit does work with us, but cannot work IN us until we get baptized and the laying on of hands. At this point the Holy Spirit can really start working with us while being in us.
We are all a work in progress. Sometimes you can look back and see more progress has been made than at other times, but we must continue to keep trying and working on improving ourselves to be like our older brother Jesus Christ.

 

[Dead Duck]

https://video.foxnews.com/v/5979230275001/?#sp=show-clips

 

[T.Lex]

https://video.foxnews.com/v/5979230275001/?#sp=show-clips

Dang - that's fascinating! I can even see some ways to expand on it.

I had not considered (even as a Catholic) that just as the OT prefigures Christ, there is also prefiguring of Mary.

Of course, whenever the issue of Mary's influence comes up, I feel obliged to remind that any good Jewish son is going to listen to his mother.

 

[Dead Duck]

 

[CampingJosh]

The Holy Spirit does work with us, but cannot work IN us until we get baptized and the laying on of hands. At this point the Holy Spirit can really start working with us while being in us.

I don't think it is on you to decide what God can and cannot do.

 

[foszoe]

Thank you T.Lex (#3941) and especially foszoe (#3951) for the thoughtful responses

I am left with much to think about. I must confess (IKR) that I am uncomfortable still with the church (any church) as intercessor between myself and God. I will concede that much mischief has come from people lacking the (I want to say protocols, but that has become a charged word) procedures for working with the high voltage (if you will) that is The Lord. I hope you will likewise concede that much mischief has also devolved from trusting mere mortals to determine best practices (sorry that this is beginning to sound like a committee report, but I'm trying to stay within the 'electrical lineman' type of metaphor)

At first I was gonna dump a bunch of scripture but then I figured that would be too much. In the NKJV there are 110 verses containing the word “church”. so focusing on the word intercessor, who intercedes to God for Peter?

Acts 12:4–5 (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]So when he had arrested him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four squads of soldiers to keep him, intending to bring him before the people after Passover. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Peter was therefore kept in prison, but constant prayer was offered to God for him by the church.

I can go on but I think this citation makes it clear that the church has the power to intercede.
The Church is empowered by the Holy Spirit and is the pillar and ground of truth. Thus she is empowered to determine best practices.

1 Timothy 3:15 (NKJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Let’s draw out the lineman analogy a bit. Over the course of many years, switching practices have been updated and revised as ideally there is one goal in switching, saving lives. Salvation if you will
Now the church over 2000 years has weeded out thousands of switching errors (heresies and false practices) that result in spiritual death.
Why reinvent the wheel now individually? Is it really worth going it alone when the salvation of your soul is even more important than your physical life?

My personal experience has been such that the spirit was working in me long before I committed to Christ, and it is still working within me. I am a work in progress. It does not seem like it was or should be a complicated process

It’s not a complicated process. It is just learning to say yes. The difficulty is learning who you are saying yes to. That is what the Church protects you against.

A personal cross is works. My heart is hard and I struggle to reconcile the admonitions of Matthew 25 with how I feel about the people on the other side of the border, for instance. When "The least among us" is spoken of, is it our own citizens in our own communities in need, or is it all peoples everywhere? Is there a limitation on the admonition keeping it within my means or is it without limit? And of course, down that path lies all sort of self-serving definition and justification of actions or their lack. The only path I can see toward truth is prayer and introspection. My feeling is that if I allow another to detail or interpret what God expects of me, I will not truly believe it and it opens the door to shopping for an interpretation of scripture that allows me to change or be inconvenienced but little. Thus, in my heart, I think I must reject any sort of God interpreting guru, whether organization or individual

I value the patience you both show me and the effort you put into answering my questions, despite appearances to the contrary

I think it is scriptural to take care of your local community first and that means those in the church. That does not mean we should neglect others far away.
The example of the Bible and the Saints is that we care for the beggar next to us and the Church first. Who was Paul collecting for? The Church. Who did the good Samaritan help? The guy on the road.

 

[foszoe]

Because God before all time in His providence took her prayers into her account.

You aren't seriously suggesting we shouldn't intercede for each other when we see suffering?

Do you pray for your wife?

Wait - how is it that Mary can intercede for Joseph, and why does she need to?

 

[foszoe]

Joseph had his doubts.

this is completely unbiblical.

Joseph: What do you mean you have no rooms, she's about to give birth to humanity's savior.

Innkeeper: Sorry we get really busy around Christmastime.

Joseph:

 

[foszoe]

Christ is our intercessor between us and God, not a church. The church's function isn't to save people or convert people. The function of the church is to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God as well as teaching the word of God. It should be a safe place for like-minded people to go to edify each other and support one another. Philippians 2:12 says to work out our own salvation. We have no one to blame but ourselves. Not even Christ calls people, God the Father does the calling. It is up to the person being called as to if they answer or not.

See my post above.

The Holy Spirit does work with us, but cannot work IN us until we get baptized and the laying on of hands. At this point the Holy Spirit can really start working with us while being in us.
We are all a work in progress. Sometimes you can look back and see more progress has been made than at other times, but we must continue to keep trying and working on improving ourselves to be like our older brother Jesus Christ.

I had to read that first sentence twice, but I agree.

 

[T.Lex]

Quick note - I think this intercession issue was covered earlier, too. And it directly relates to what one thinks happens when we die. That is, whether someone whose soul resides in heaven is still living, still connected to us by love.

 

[foszoe]

Quick note - I think this intercession issue was covered earlier, too. And it directly relates to what one thinks happens when we die. That is, whether someone whose soul resides in heaven is still living, still connected to us by love.

Except in this case I think we would all agree Mary and Joseph were alive at the nativity.

I feel like I'm missing something.

 

[Ziggidy]

The Church is empowered by the Holy Spirit and is the pillar and ground of truth. Thus she is empowered to determine best practices.
It’s not a complicated process.

We are also empowered by that "same" Holy Spirit, for the same purpose.

I believe there is value in the church, not to the extent that it has given itself.

See, you also say it's not complicated - it must be "simple"

 

[ArcadiaGP]

 

[T.Lex]

Except in this case I think we would all agree Mary and Joseph were alive at the nativity.

I feel like I'm missing something.

Yeah, sorry, I was just mentioning that the intercession thing - specifically the intercession of Mary, which can be a sore point when discussing intercession in general - had come up before. For the earlier conversation, it related more to the intercession of those who have passed away. (I think.)

 

[foszoe]

We are also empowered by that "same" Holy Spirit, for the same purpose.

I believe there is value in the church, not to the extent that it has given itself.

See, you also say it's not complicated - it must be "simple"

It's easy. Just follow the instructions.

Just like Jesus to the Apostles. Paul to Timothy.

It didn't get complex and difficult until a bunch of men stopped following instructions.

Not following instructions and directions because every single man knows a better or easier or simpler way.

Now its ended up so complex we get to talk about it every day!

When I was a kid the rule of the house, economia, was do what I tell you. And when I did life was easy, livin was simple.

Problems only started when I questioned the familial authority.

Unpleasant encounters with the police started because I decided not to follow simple rules.

If your work involves life and death choices and is governed by procedures then taking the easy way can get someone killed.

It's just easier more simple to follow the rules.

The church makes saints.has for 2000 years. Hasn't come up with a new procedure in that department for 1300 years since the last ecumenical council

Things don't change from the secular to the sacred because the church teaches there is no distinction between the two.

My life is the same inside the church and out because salvation is communal....just like life.

For western Europe the sacred and secular separated and living sacramental was lost.

I look at protestantism and I consistently see let's try this let's try that.

I'll take the Church.

 

[foszoe]

So I was sitting down to read my December 1 issue of the Economist and right there on the cover was an anti Orthodox slur.
https://www.economist.com/printedition/covers?print_region=76975

 

[T.Lex]

So I was sitting down to read my December 1 issue of the Economist and right there on the cover was an anti Orthodox slur.
https://www.economist.com/printedition/covers?print_region=76975

Uh... I don't get it.

 

[foszoe]

Uh... I don't get it.

Naval gazing....