CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[2A_Tom]

1 So "saved" is related to conversion but not salvation?

Please do take a minute to explain the distinction.



2Paul's words there in 1 Corinthians aren't talking about a person working on himself. Paul is talking about evangelism. Paul laid the foundation for this church by preaching Christ; Apollos is building on that foundation by continuing to teach. Paul seems to be saying that even if the church that Apollos is teaching is destroyed by the fire--if this Corinthian church doesn't withstand--Apollos himself will still be saved.

1 The act of Salvation, being saved is an act performed by Jesus when you ask him to save you. Ephesians 2:8+9 Done and done. Conversion is the ongoing walk in those which G-d has before ordained that you should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

2 You are correct that Paul was specifically speaking of Soul-Winning AND discipleship. There is a need to transfer principles. If building on the foundation is discipleship and you are a disciple it stands to reason that building on the foundation in your life is a part of that.

Who is most responsible for your own discipleship? You are.

when your works are tried at the Judgment Seat of Christ G-d's works that you walked in will be rewarded and those works of the flesh will be burned up. So the goal of every Saved person should be to waste as little of their life on their own ends and as much as possible on the works that G-d has prepared for him.

 

[Ziggidy]

I am thinking that if a group of us got together and all of a sudden Jesus walked in, He would slowly move His head back and forth slowly while He looks at each one of us in the eyes.... saying boys, boys, boys.....with a little twinkle of laughter in His eyes.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rvb]

I would say that its bidirectional. Works can produce faith and faith can produce works. For me this is experiential knowledge.
...
Lets return again to Matthew 25.
....
Again in this passage thee is no mention of faith but there is mention of inheriting the kingdom BASED on what you DID and mention of everlasting for punishment for FAILING to do.

I too have similar experiences of works resulting in greater faith.

We like to point to John 3:16 and say that belief is all that's required for eternal life. But is belief (faith) binary? Is it latched such that it can never waiver? I think this is where Matthew 25 does come into play...

-rvb

 

[foszoe]

I too have similar experiences of works resulting in greater faith.

We like to point to John 3:16 and say that belief is all that's required for eternal life. But is belief (faith) binary? Is it latched such that it can never waiver? I think this is where Matthew 25 does come into play...

-rvb

I don't think for those of us not dying immediately like the thief these things are all encompassing.

Here is my approach. I should believe and I should do...the rest is up to God's love, grace and mercy. I can understand why eternal security would be desirable especially if salvation is viewed as escaping from something ie wrath or hell or something. But if we choose to view salvation as for something this changes the faith works discussion in my opinion.

Try this. Think of sin as a failure to achieve the purpose for which you are created. How would that affect your view of salvation?

The work of our salvation is totally and entirely an act of divine grace yet we remain totally and entirely free.

At every point our human cooperation is the work of the Holy Spirit. Hence how I understand helper as essential to our salvation which sparked my earlier question and should explain my earlier post about the one talent servant.

We are saved by the total work of Christ not just the crucifixion.

Salvation is Christ in us not Christ for us.

Orthodoxy links sanctification and justification together. 1 Cor 6:11

As far as reticence to ask forgiveness from others, in orthodox churches at the beginning of lent we have forgiveness vespers. You go to each and every person in the parish and bow before them asking forgiveness with your knees and forehead on the ground. Including the children. This recognition of salvation as communal is essential. Even if you do nothing against a single person you must recognize that your sin affects the whole community.

We are to treat the whole world and all of creation as theophanic. Salvation is sacramental to use western terminology call mystical in the east.

 

[Benp]

God requires faith from us. The big accounts in the bible that jump out at us are ones that either the person needed faith to prevail or showed faith and prevailed. Faith is believing what God says without evidence to prove it. Trust.

 

[foszoe]

As one Saint said, St Irenaus I believe. Christ and the holy Spirit are the two hands of God and when God works he always uses both hands.

 

[foszoe]

How to read an icon



Above is the nativity icon of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

There are the shepherds to the right who were pure of heart and received from the angels the news that the Savior of the world had been born. The magi are seen to the left being guided by the star. The women at the bottom right are midwives who display that the Son of God was truly born as a human, and did not merely appear to be human as some early heretics claimed.

At the bottom left is Joseph. The story is that after the birth of Jesus he walked out of the cave and was greatly battling doubts. The figure next to him is supposed to be the devil who is, of course, not making it any easier on him. We may sing “What Child is This?” but Joseph’s question was “Whose child is this?!” since he knew he was certainly not the father.

Mary is facing Joseph instead of Jesus, which is rare in any icon featuring both Jesus and Mary. She is concerned about him and interceding for him. Jesus lies next to Mary wrapped in grave clothes foreshadowing his coming death.

Joseph also has a halo, indicating he is a saint of the Orthodox Church. He wrestled with doubt even after God incarnate had physically come into his life. It makes me wonder if the shepherds appeared after Jesus’ birth more for Joseph’s sake than anything else.

Our Church’s hymns mention this struggle and Joseph’s victory over doubt:

Joseph, when he beheld the greatness of this wonder, thought that he saw a mortal wrapped as a babe in swaddling clothes; but from all that came to pass he understood that it was the true God, who grants the world great mercy. – Vespers of the Forefeast of the Nativity of Christ.

As you celebrate this Christmas season, rest in the fact that our Savior has come into this world and our lives to heal every messy, doubting, sinful part of us. There is nothing a repentant heart has done that will permanently push God away from it. And there is nothing that you have done that he has not already helped someone else through, someone else who is considered a saint.

 

[Ziggidy]

I do not know how to do some of the fancy post stuff. This was in reply to foszoe in post #3976 (sorry)


I do read it most of the time.....not always. For some reason today I have.

The thought that comes to mind is the word "can", which is much different from "necessary". Is it necessary? I personally do not see it that way. Sanctification is a never ending process that includes works produced by faith. If a specific amount of works was necessary, I think it would be more clear on that. Instead I believe, although faith can produce good works (and should), I say good works is an outward appearance being saved. No amount is required, thus supporting the "can" statement of yours.

I may have chopped this post up pretty good, not good at the multi-answer thing. I will say this. The punishment for not doing good works can be looked at differently. Since we know that faith produces good works, or faith without works is dead, we can (I will) make the assumption that the person claiming to be saved was actually not saved. Faith without works is dead....but it is by faith we are saved, not works. Someone may claim to be save, act like it but when it comes to judgment time, the Lord knows His sheep. In that parable, I believe Jesus was emphasizing the importance of acting out your faith through helping others, as He has helped us.

 

[T.Lex]

I do not know how to do some of the fancy post stuff. This was in reply to foszoe in post #3976 (sorry)


I do read it most of the time.....not always. For some reason today I have.

The thought that comes to mind is the word "can", which is much different from "necessary". Is it necessary? I personally do not see it that way. Sanctification is a never ending process that includes works produced by faith. If a specific amount of works was necessary, I think it would be more clear on that. Instead I believe, although faith can produce good works (and should), I say good works is an outward appearance being saved. No amount is required, thus supporting the "can" statement of yours.

I may have chopped this post up pretty good, not good at the multi-answer thing. I will say this. The punishment for not doing good works can be looked at differently. Since we know that faith produces good works, or faith without works is dead, we can (I will) make the assumption that the person claiming to be saved was actually not saved. Faith without works is dead....but it is by faith we are saved, not works. Someone may claim to be save, act like it but when it comes to judgment time, the Lord knows His sheep. In that parable, I believe Jesus was emphasizing the importance of acting out your faith through helping others, as He has helped us.

At the risk of finding commonality I don't really disagree with any of this.

The only part that is strange to me - and this happens whenever it comes up - is the whole justification/sanctification thing. My eyes glaze over. I'm just totally ignorant (I think) of how that stuff fits in. That part seems to me the overcomplication.

While overly simplistic, I think those words (or rather, the meanings in this context) fit into my own system thusly: we have faith in Jesus and because of that faith, we should do the work Jesus would do. In other words, walk with Jesus through this world, allowing Him to guide us.

I absolutely agree that there isn't really a 'minimum required' works type thing. Or at least, I don't think there is. More in line with foszoe's description of the Orthodox approach, we're supposed to exercise our free will to answer God's call. That'll probably be different for each of us. In fact, for some, it may be a call to lead a contemplative life in a monastery, not really "doing" anything.

We will be judged individually, for our faith and the fruit of that faith.

 

[Ziggidy]

As you celebrate this Christmas season, rest in the fact that our Savior has come into this world and our lives to heal every messy, doubting, sinful part of us. There is nothing a repentant heart has done that will permanently push God away from it. And there is nothing that you have done that he has not already helped someone else through, someone else who is considered a saint.

I say that is the foundation I was looking for.....

 

[Ziggidy]

The only part that is strange to me - and this happens whenever it comes up - is the whole justification/sanctification thing. My eyes glaze over. I'm just totally ignorant (I think) of how that stuff fits in. That part seems to me the overcomplication.

I will never claim to know how it totally works, that's where faith comes in.

Years ago I was questioning that very thing. It was explained that "justification" was "just as if I never sinned" (justified). Sanctification was the "growing in the Lord", sort of a purification process that never ends. Not necessarily works, but it includes what we have done with what was given. Although this could create another discussion, the "fruits of our labor", the works we have done will not get us into heaven but will we will receive rewards in heaven (store up treasures) - we read about rewards in heaven more than once. IMO, the sanctification process allows us to grow in Christ and in the process we begin our good works. Faith without works is dead. During that process, the good works is an outward expression of our salvation.

I struggle daily......

Anyway - it's your turn to lead.

 

[Ziggidy]

As one Saint said, St Irenaus I believe. Christ and the holy Spirit are the two hands of God and when God works he always uses both hands.

I like that...

 

[BugI02]

Thank you T.Lex (#3941) and especially foszoe (#3951) for the thoughtful responses

I am left with much to think about. I must confess (IKR) that I am uncomfortable still with the church (any church) as intercessor between myself and God. I will concede that much mischief has come from people lacking the (I want to say protocols, but that has become a charged word) procedures for working with the high voltage (if you will) that is The Lord. I hope you will likewise concede that much mischief has also devolved from trusting mere mortals to determine best practices (sorry that this is beginning to sound like a committee report, but I'm trying to stay within the 'electrical lineman' type of metaphor)

My gut feeling is that salvation should not be a subroutine; built up of many smaller, perhaps non-obvious, parts. It should be earth-shattering and instantaneous; a point of demarcation where one's life changes irrevocably. A point on a timeline that is definite, well defined and can be articulated. "On [this day] my life was changed forever"

I am also skeptical of biblical justification for trappings that read like truth tables, incumbent on accepting particular interpretations of other verses in order to reach the conclusion

If A then B
If C then B
If B then A U C

My personal experience has been such that the spirit was working in me long before I committed to Christ, and it is still working within me. I am a work in progress. It does not seem like it was or should be a complicated process

A personal cross is works. My heart is hard and I struggle to reconcile the admonitions of Matthew 25 with how I feel about the people on the other side of the border, for instance. When "The least among us" is spoken of, is it our own citizens in our own communities in need, or is it all peoples everywhere? Is there a limitation on the admonition keeping it within my means or is it without limit? And of course, down that path lies all sort of self-serving definition and justification of actions or their lack. The only path I can see toward truth is prayer and introspection. My feeling is that if I allow another to detail or interpret what God expects of me, I will not truly believe it and it opens the door to shopping for an interpretation of scripture that allows me to change or be inconvenienced but little. Thus, in my heart, I think I must reject any sort of God interpreting guru, whether organization or individual

I value the patience you both show me and the effort you put into answering my questions, despite appearances to the contrary

 

[T.Lex]

My gut feeling is that salvation should not be a subroutine; built up of many smaller, perhaps non-obvious, parts. It should be earth-shattering and instantaneous; a point of demarcation where one's life changes irrevocably. A point on a timeline that is definite, well defined and can be articulated. "On [this day] my life was changed forever"

With a slight background in programming, I will absolutely say that living one's faith - with salvation as a goal - is totally a set of subroutines. That's kinda a brilliant analogy, actually - I will likely use that for the proper audience.

Think of the Bible, and IMHO the Gospels specifically, as the subroutines that form a faith-filled life. (Not diminishing the value of the OT, but IMHO Jesus changed so much that it is a better starting point - NOT trying to start an argument on that.) Also, this analogy starts with the assumption that the person has accepted Christ. That kinda forms the initial instantiation of a faith-oriented person.

Unlike a program or AI, we choose which subroutines to follow.* Let's say there are inspired functions and sinful functions. As humans, we tend to fall into the same "routines" over time. By habituating the inspired ones, especially in small ways, we follow closer to God's will.

Now, there certainly can be dramatic "come to Jesus" moments in our lives. Times when we realize, in very stark terms, our need for Him and His corresponding love for us. But those intense times (again IMHO) aren't long-term. Or rarely are.

Our relationship with Christ is more like a marriage. (Indeed, there are good reasons that's an ongoing analogy.) Sure, the wedding itself can be a big event, full of intensity - your line of demarcation. But a marriage is a thousand million small things every day. It is an ingrained application of principles elevating a beloved's needs over our own.

To me, that's what a faith-filled life is. "Salvation" is the process and product of that faith-filled life. It isn't measured by an activity log; it is measured by one's dedication to Christ's teachings.


*A couple professional lifetimes ago, I did some work with people programming AI for decisionmaking. Some of the effects were... eerie. Playing "god" with the machinations of virtual people was actually insightful to me in terms of my faith. It really is more interesting to give AI a set of criteria and see what they come up with in terms of decisions. For as great as it is to see the code pass the right variables to the right array and result in the "right" decision, the thrill of seeing a "wrong" decision that still appears reasonable and what the AI then do with that is pretty cool.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Joseph: What do you mean you have no rooms, she's about to give birth to humanity's savior.

Innkeeper: Sorry we get really busy around Christmastime.

Joseph:

 

[T.Lex]

haha

Well, they did have alot of new people in town at the time... kinda like a convention for taxation.

 

[JettaKnight]

Mary is facing Joseph instead of Jesus, which is rare in any icon featuring both Jesus and Mary. She is concerned about him and interceding for him. Jesus lies next to Mary wrapped in grave clothes foreshadowing his coming death.

Wait - how is it that Mary can intercede for Joseph, and why does she need to?

 

[T.Lex]

Wait - how is it that Mary can intercede for Joseph, and why does she need to?

That jumped off at me, but was going to not get into it.

 

[JettaKnight]

I think the INGO book club should read Stop Asking Jesus Into Your Heart.

 

[historian]

I think the INGO book club should read Stop Asking Jesus Into Your Heart.

Yeah...you talk to the boss about my ban on books...