CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[Ziggidy]

I can gladly get into that!

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Irmos: Christ is born; glorify Him! Christ comes from heaven; come to welcome Him! Christ is on earth; lift up your hearts! Sing to the Lord, O earth! Be exalted and sing with hearty gladness, O ye people, sing His praise for He is glorified!
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[FONT=&amp]Glory to Thee, our God, glory to Thee.
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[FONT=&amp]Man was made in the image of God, but he sinned, and lost immortality. He fell from the divine and better life, enslaved completely by corruption. Now the wise Creator fashions him again, for He has been glorified!
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[FONT=&amp]Glory to Thee, our God, glory to Thee.
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[FONT=&amp]The Creator shaped man with His own hands, but when He saw us perishing eternally, He bowed the heavens and came down to earth, and clothed Himself completely in our nature, truly incarnate from a pure and holy Virgin, for He has been glorified!
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[FONT=&amp]Glory to Thee, our God, glory to Thee.
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[FONT=&amp]Wisdom, and Word, and Power, Christ our God is the Father’s Son, His Radiance. He was made man, a mystery concealed from every spirit above or on the earth. He has won us for Himself, for He has been glorified!
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[FONT=&amp]Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.
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[FONT=&amp]Katavasia: Christ is born; glorify Him! Christ comes from heaven; come to welcome Him! Christ is on earth; lift up your hearts! Sing to the Lord, O earth! Be exalted and sing with hearty gladness, O ye people, sing His praise for He is glorified![/FONT]

Amen!

 

[Ziggidy]

The Hope that is Christ within us?

 

[T.Lex]

Honestly, the only truly "common" element of all the divisions of Christianity is a belief in Jesus as the Messiah. But it is almost in a strictly historical context.

We could agree as to about 80% of the words He said (maybe more, maybe less) but no commonality as to what they mean today.

We could agree as to about 90% of the things He did (maybe more, maybe less) but no commonality as to why or to what effect.

It is unfortunate, but I tend to think it all fits into God's plan somehow.

 

[Ziggidy]

From your lips, to God's ears.

1) Paul's descriptions on HOW to follow Christ
2) (Probably controversial) "belief" is related to "action"

Back to you, Zig....

I said I would "shut up"

 

[JettaKnight]

[video=youtube;mY3Ni4x-ocY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY3Ni4x-ocY[/video]

 

[Ziggidy]

Honestly, the only truly "common" element of all the divisions of Christianity is a belief in Jesus as the Messiah. But it is almost in a strictly historical context.

We could agree as to about 80% of the words He said (maybe more, maybe less) but no commonality as to what they mean today.

We could agree as to about 90% of the things He did (maybe more, maybe less) but no commonality as to why or to what effect.

It is unfortunate, but I tend to think it all fits into God's plan somehow.

Thanks! IMO, having that Hope, knowing that Truth is it.

For the person who just accepts Jesus as savior, walks out and gets killed....his faith is what saved him. Everything else that we speak of or disagree with has absolutely no influence on that persons destiny.

Let's have a Merry Christmas....and then look forward to the Resurrection!

 

[ArcadiaGP]

 

[2A_Tom]

I seriously doubt I'd get the one you want on my first try.

Exactly.

 

[historian]

Nice!

 

[Dead Duck]

 

[CampingJosh]

Thanks, allot of time went into that post. While I was reading it, James 2:14 kept coming to me. "Faith without works is dead" While you appear to say that good works is a part of salvation, I believe works is the result of salvation. That is a key difference, as I see it.

There is no doubt in my mind that works is important and the bible speaks volumes on it, but the works is not part of salvation. I cannot think of any passage that states you must do "works" to obtain salvation. Yes, I am one who believe you can lose you salvation regardless of good works. That is important because, IMO, clearly states that faith is needed for salvation and losing your salvation is turning away from God - regardless of your good works. Faith is not a result of good works, but rather good works is a result of true faith.

Did the man who buried his money have faith?

There certainly is mention of good works in the Bible, but whenever one mentions salvation, entering into His kingdom, being saved......not once, that I can recall, starts with works or good deeds but rather by faith in Jesus Christ.

We will have to agree to disagree. It is very simple in "our" eyes and hearts. The common ground I have been looking for is Jesus Christ, Christ alone. I still believe that is true even if we disagree on salvation. Christ is the reason we are discussing christianity, it is our common thread. It is what holds "us" together. That one commonality, Jesus Christ, cannot be disputed. Everything else can be interpreted differently but Christ alone is the center. I think that is important and I value that, even in you and others who I may disagree with. One cannot deny Christ is what holds us together; remove everything else, Christ is still there. You may not even agree with that, but it's ok. I'm not asking you to.

Zig, it seems that you see salvation for an individual person as an event that we can put a timestamp on. "I was saved on June 14, 1988, when..." I know that is a common thing in a lot of Protestant denominations and groups, including my own.

As I read the Scriptures, I'm not convinced that such a view makes sense. Philippians 2 (esp. vv. 12-13) makes it seem like an ongoing process of being saved, not a process where we are saved and then we move on to something else. I get the sense that salvation and sanctification not as separable as the traditional Protestant view. (Or at least shouldn't be as separated as we often try to keep them.)

It seems weird and totally outside any biblical model to try to get salvation without sanctification.

 

[Dead Duck]

 

[2A_Tom]

When you pick up an aluminum can on the side of the road, you have salvaged it. When you melt it down and mold it into something useful, you have converted it.

This verse says work out your own salvation. Let us look at that. Does it refer to a contract "work out the details" or is it like a job you have "work out the day".

Philippians 2:12 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Fear and trembling? Really?

1 John 4:18 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Yes fear and trembling ! Really!

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Work out your Salvation.

Don't get Salvation and conversion mixed up. That is what the works salvation folk do.

 

[Ziggidy]

Zig, it seems that you see salvation for an individual person as an event that we can put a timestamp on. "I was saved on June 14, 1988, when..." I know that is a common thing in a lot of Protestant denominations and groups, including my own.

As I read the Scriptures, I'm not convinced that such a view makes sense. Philippians 2 (esp. vv. 12-13) makes it seem like an ongoing process of being saved, not a process where we are saved and then we move on to something else. I get the sense that salvation and sanctification not as separable as the traditional Protestant view. (Or at least shouldn't be as separated as we often try to keep them.)

It seems weird and totally outside any biblical model to try to get salvation without sanctification.

I agree totally! The date I was saved is my "justification" and my life is a continual process of sanctification. I agree, never ending process while I am alive. I also believe that the sanctification is not a part of being saved but rather the faith in action. The bible speaks of rewards in heaven. I believe sanctification plays a part in our rewards in heaven; which is a whole different topic that not everyone agrees with (which I do not want to enter into at this time)

Think I have a limited time to "lead".....which some may feel I have taken more time than I was allotted! I'll hand it over to T-Rex

 

[Ziggidy]

[video=youtube;R_bkNkrWdz8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_bkNkrWdz8[/video]

 

[foszoe]

Thanks, allot of time went into that post

You are welcome. I usually wonder if the people I respond directly to take the time to read the entire post but sometimes others seem to get something out of it.

There is no doubt in my mind that works is important and the bible speaks volumes on it, but the works is not part of salvation. I cannot think of any passage that states you must do "works" to obtain salvation. Yes, I am one who believe you can lose you salvation regardless of good works. That is important because, IMO, clearly states that faith is needed for salvation and losing your salvation is turning away from God - regardless of your good works. Faith is not a result of good works, but rather good works is a result of true faith.

I would say that its bidirectional. Works can produce faith and faith can produce works. For me this is experiential knowledge. My faith often increases when I spend time at monasteries or visit holy sites.



Many people will go to Arlington Cemetary, or the D-Day beaches, or the Holocaust furnaces and will say they are forever changed by the experience. In my personal experience pilgrimages greatly increase my faith.

Did the man who buried his money have faith?

Let’s search the scriptures like Bereans

“Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what isyours.’

26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness.There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

The only thing we know from scripture is that he was punished for not doing something. One thing I didn’t highlight in that last post because it was getting so long it might not work on short attention span theatre was that the talents are given by God but another key phrase is to every one that has … I would say this means the work that you do and the ability to do is is also of God for even this is still given BUT we still have to choose to do it. Consider that it is not the work that saves but choosing to do the work. That doesn’t mean we should neglect to star the work though for that seems to be what this man did.



What we can say for certain faith or lack thereof is not mentioned in this text.

There certainly is mention of good works in the Bible, but whenever one mentions salvation, entering into His kingdom, being saved......not once, that I can recall, starts with works or good deeds but rather by faith in Jesus Christ.

Lets return again to Matthew 25.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did itto one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Again in this passage thee is no mention of faith but there is mention of inheriting the kingdom BASED on what you DID and mention of everlasting for punishment for FAILING to do.



Both of these passages are examples that I have been citing over the last few days as how I can read a scripture and to me it plainly means something but to others it does not. The last time I used these as examples, Jetta escaped the trap by claiming they were ONLY Parables J



This is the fallout, I believe, of reading the Gospels through the lens of the Pauline epistles, especially Romans whereas I believe that to be backwards.

 

[Benp]

Zig, it seems that you see salvation for an individual person as an event that we can put a timestamp on. "I was saved on June 14, 1988, when..." I know that is a common thing in a lot of Protestant denominations and groups, including my own.

As I read the Scriptures, I'm not convinced that such a view makes sense. Philippians 2 (esp. vv. 12-13) makes it seem like an ongoing process of being saved, not a process where we are saved and then we move on to something else. I get the sense that salvation and sanctification not as separable as the traditional Protestant view. (Or at least shouldn't be as separated as we often try to keep them.)

It seems weird and totally outside any biblical model to try to get salvation without sanctification.

Yes, at any given time a person can start making bad decisions and then end up on a path that does not lead to salvation. Galations 6:9 tells us to not grow weary of doing good. This isn't indicating that people will get tired of doing good and continue to do good anyway, but they will stop doing good. This also tells us that we don't always get a great feeling or a reward for doing good - in fact it may seem fruitless to us, but we should still do it and our reward will be later.

 

[CampingJosh]

When you pick up an aluminum can on the side of the road, you have salvaged it. When you melt it down and mold it into something useful, you have converted it.

Don't get Salvation and conversion mixed up. That is what the works salvation folk do.

So "saved" is related to conversion but not salvation?

Please do take a minute to explain the distinction.

This verse says work out your own salvation. Let us look at that. Does it refer to a contract "work out the details" or is it like a job you have "work out the day".

Fear and trembling? Really? Yes fear and trembling ! Really!

Work out your Salvation.

Paul's words there in 1 Corinthians aren't talking about a person working on himself. Paul is talking about evangelism. Paul laid the foundation for this church by preaching Christ; Apollos is building on that foundation by continuing to teach. Paul seems to be saying that even if the church that Apollos is teaching is destroyed by the fire--if this Corinthian church doesn't withstand--Apollos himself will still be saved.

 

[Dead Duck]

 

[foszoe]

Which translation do I have to quote?

Sure wish this was simple!