CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[foszoe]

In case I offend someone, I am not singling out anyone here. I have no idea what state of grace any of you are in and I know myself to be simply a poor sinner.

 

[JettaKnight]

In case I offend someone, I am not singling out anyone here. I have no idea what state of grace any of you are in and I know myself to be simply a poor sinner.

No offense taken.

My statement "the church" more refers to how does the public see us and how do we see ourselves, rather than hierarchy and divisions. Given that Orthodox is under 5% in the US, it really doesn't factor in the perception Christians have in the gay community.

If it makes it more palatable, then read "Christian believers as a whole" in place of "the church". Whatever allows us to get past that word.


You know, I actually might have to agree with you, this sort of crap wouldn't happen without a unified body, i.e. the Church.


But, then I remember, there is plenty of unified, organized, hierarchies that have failed. Big time. Anglican, Episcopalian, Amish, UMC, PCUSA, etc. So, I have to discount the notion that simply having every church be in one big Church will keep us all on the straight and narrow. In my mind, all that leads to is rules and more rules about pointless minutia and leads to pharisaism.

The Bible is pretty explicit on plenty of things that matter, so if you can't simply follow that, then what is a guy in a pointy hat going to do?

 

[JettaKnight]

Christmas is upon us, so let's get this straight:

 

[2A_Tom]

If a female identifies as a male and a male identifies as a female; can they marry? And adopt children?

There is at least one couple that is transgender and have natural children.

ETA: I defer to those that Biblically that does not make it right. I knew it wasn't and was not attempting to say it was.

 

[Ziggidy]

The problem root as with most sins lies in the protestant movement doing away with confession as an Avenue for the Grace of God.

You are just hilarious! I guess it was time for a topic change.

So the "root" of "most sins" is caused by Protestant "movement"? I am a little confused when you mention "confession"; not sure what you are referencing. Are you saying confess our sins to God or are you referring to the confessional box, telling my sins to a priest?

"And it's not the individual's fault". Are you suggesting that "the individual" is ignorant of God's word? Further suggesting that God is not able to communicate His word to the mere individual? Maybe you are listening the wrong God? I truly believe you need to remove the limitations you have placed on God.

 

[Ziggidy]

I knew it wasn't and was not attempting to say it was.

I knew that....just being facetious.

 

[2A_Tom]

I knew that....just being facetious.

I realized after I posted it, that it could be misconstrued to imply acceptance.

Since I am normally the one to post the Biblical references to dispute the accepted worldliness I was a bit embarrassed.

 

[2A_Tom]

OH, G-d, why are you putting me through these trials?

From the sad but true picture thread.

 

[2A_Tom]

Every person for himself. That's why a "Christian" bookstore has shelves full of self help books with all the latest authors up front and a shelf or two of dusty bibles in the back.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?hs=1&q=confess

Out of 44 references in the biBle to the word confess there are only 2 that even come close to your man made confession.

James 5:16 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextConfess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Fault, paraptwma, [FONT=&amp]paraptoma, [/FONT][FONT=&amp]from [/FONT]parapiptw[FONT=&amp] - parapipto [/FONT]3895[FONT=&amp]; a side-slip (lapse or deviation), i.e. (unintentional) error or (wilful) transgression:--fall, fault, offence, sin, trespass.[/FONT]

This seems to refer to a counseling situation where one saved person is seeking the advice and help of another saved person.

1 John 1:9 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextIf we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Sin, amartia, hamartia, [FONT=&amp]from [/FONT]amartanw[FONT=&amp] - hamartano [/FONT]264[FONT=&amp]; a sin (properly concrete):--sin.[/FONT]

This is confession to him that we acknowledge our sins and ask him for forgiveness and help in overcoming them.

 

[foszoe]

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?hs=1&q=confess

Out of 44 references in the biBle to the word confess there are only 2 that even come close to your man made confession.

I appreciate that you are using the greek in your studies! However, you focused on two different words than I would have.

I would be interested in your research into what the Greek word translated as "confess" meant.

 

[2A_Tom]

My point is completely limited to Whom sins are confessed to.

 

[foszoe]

You are just hilarious! I guess it was time for a topic change.

So the "root" of "most sins" is caused by Protestant "movement"? I am a little confused when you mention "confession"; not sure what you are referencing. Are you saying confess our sins to God or are you referring to the confessional box, telling my sins to a priest?

"And it's not the individual's fault". Are you suggesting that "the individual" is ignorant of God's word? Further suggesting that God is not able to communicate His word to the mere individual? Maybe you are listening the wrong God? I truly believe you need to remove the limitations you have placed on God.

Protestants came up with the idea of "once saved, always saved" or eternal security. That certainly mitigates the need for self reflection and takes a lot of the fear of sinning. So yes, the reason Protestants aren't united in their views on some critical matters is because they have convinced themselves that they are non-essential.

As to ignorance of God's word. Nope. I believe that Protestants are very familiar with God's word as in many read it all the time. It's not the individual's fault that the interpretation they have been taught and hold to be true of the last 50 years. The protestants also encourage listening to God's word. God said...God spoke...God laid it on my heart...go to one of their testimonial services and you can hear it all the time. The problem with it is, in most cases, the only check and balance on that voice is themselves. The limitations I am talking about refer to the lack thereof on the believer.

 

[foszoe]

And my question to you is completely limited to what confessed or confess or confession means. I would think that would be key to understanding any of the 44 references to confession that you cited.

My point is completely limited to Whom sins are confessed to.

 

[2A_Tom]

There actually only 24 occurrences of confess in the greek and none of them is tied to man made requirement for confession to a man.

Matthew 3:6, Mark 1:5, Acts 19:18 Romans 14:11, 19:9 Philippians 2:11 and Revelation 3:5

[FONT=&quot]1843[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]exomologew exomologeo ex-om-ol-og-eh'-o[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]from ek - ek 1537 and omologew - homologeo 3670; to acknowledge or (by implication, of assent) agree fully:--confess, profess, promise.[/FONT]

Matthew 10:32, Luke 12:8, John 1:20, 9:22, 12:42, Acts 23:8, 24:14, Romans 10:9, 10:10, Hebrews 11:13, James 5:16, 1 John 1:9
4:2,3,15 and 2 John 1:7

[FONT=&quot]3670[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]omologew homologeo hom-ol-og-eh'-o[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]from a compound of the base of omou - homou 3674 and logoV - logos 3056; to assent, i.e. covenant, acknowledge:--con- (pro-)fess, confession is made, give thanks, promise.[/FONT]

1 Timothy 6:13

[FONT=&quot]3671[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]omologia homologia hom-ol-og-ee'-ah[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]from the same as omologew - homologeo 3670; acknowledgment:--con- (pro-)fession, professed.[/FONT]

I completed my homework. If you could be so good as to post the extra Biblical basis of t the Greek church's justification for confession to a man.

I am not saying that your church does not have the right to make whatever rules they want. You said that was one of the problems with protestant churches. Whereas I say show it to me in the bible and I will look at it.

BTW Baptists were never a part of the catholic church, so we are not protestants.

 

[foszoe]

There actually only 24 occurrences of confess in the greek and none of them is tied to man made requirement for confession to a man.

Matthew 3:6, Mark 1:5, Acts 19:18 Romans 14:11, 19:9 Philippians 2:11 and Revelation 3:5

[FONT=&amp]1843[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]exomologew exomologeo ex-om-ol-og-eh'-o[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]from ek - ek 1537 and omologew - homologeo 3670; to acknowledge or (by implication, of assent) agree fully:--confess, profess, promise.[/FONT]

Matthew 10:32, Luke 12:8, John 1:20, 9:22, 12:42, Acts 23:8, 24:14, Romans 10:9, 10:10, Hebrews 11:13, James 5:16, 1 John 1:9
4:2,3,15 and 2 John 1:7

[FONT=&amp]3670[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]omologew homologeo hom-ol-og-eh'-o[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]from a compound of the base of omou - homou 3674 and logoV - logos 3056; to assent, i.e. covenant, acknowledge:--con- (pro-)fess, confession is made, give thanks, promise.[/FONT]

1 Timothy 6:13

[FONT=&amp]3671[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]omologia homologia hom-ol-og-ee'-ah[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]from the same as omologew - homologeo 3670; acknowledgment:--con- (pro-)fession, professed.[/FONT]

I completed my homework. If you could be so good as to post the extra Biblical basis of t the Greek church's justification for confession to a man.

I am not saying that your church does not have the right to make whatever rules they want. You said that was one of the problems with protestant churches. Whereas I say show it to me in the bible and I will look at it.

BTW Baptists were never a part of the catholic church, so we are not protestants.

The phrase "confession to a man" in your question confuses me. By the definitions in your own post, which I enjoyed reading through the quotations (thanks!), Confession could easily be between 2 people, because it simply means acknowledging something or professing something. So it isn't really the phrase "confession to a man that seems to be a problem" after all our James 5:16 reference would seem to indicate it's possible to confess to a man.

Now I don't want to presume what you REALLY mean but I bet you mean something else.

 

[Ziggidy]

Protestants came up with the idea of "once saved, always saved" or eternal security. That certainly mitigates the need for self reflection and takes a lot of the fear of sinning. So yes, the reason Protestants aren't united in their views on some critical matters is because they have convinced themselves that they are non-essential.

As to ignorance of God's word. Nope. I believe that Protestants are very familiar with God's word as in many read it all the time. It's not the individual's fault that the interpretation they have been taught and hold to be true of the last 50 years. The protestants also encourage listening to God's word. God said...God spoke...God laid it on my heart...go to one of their testimonial services and you can hear it all the time. The problem with it is, in most cases, the only check and balance on that voice is themselves. The limitations I am talking about refer to the lack thereof on the believer.

1) Once saved, always saved - this protestant does not subscribe to that (another topic gonna surface again)

2) God said, God spoke, God laid in on my heart - only holds true if it aligns with scripture.....Understanding that the Holy Spirit works in all of us. Most every church that I have been to will quietly correct words of the flesh presented as God's word. Again, if it does not align, it must be corrected.

You have never been to "our" church or the churches I have attended. We follow the word, period. I have visited protestant churches and have walked out during service.....why? God laid it only heart that it was not where I should be - it didn't align with His word.

In all honesty, there are churches out there that share the characteristics of what you describe, but I would say not the majority.....not even close.

Now, if we wish to speak about non-biblical practices, not supported in Scripture (the Word), I think catholicism is right up there with the best of them. However the argument is that "tradition" adds to or further defines / explains areas that are absent from the bible or interpreted differently. It's an easy way out for the RCC, "we have God and tradition" to guide us. One can easily say that the "catholic church" should replace your "protestant movement" statement. It would make a much better fit.

 

[Ziggidy]

Maybe I have (or someone else has) but I don't remember, so I will ask

I believe we all agree on some issues:

The Bible is God's Inspired Book for all mankind
Jesus born of a virgin.
Jesus God is God in the flesh
Jesus died for our sins
Jesus rose on the 3rd day
Jesus ascended into heaven and is with God
If we accept Jesus as Lord, place our faith in Him and confess our sins to Jesus and repent of our ways, we will be saved.

This is as basic as it gets......do you believe there is more? Less?

Remove the doctrines and the frills. Someone is dying on the street and asks you, what must I do, please help me.

What do you say?

 

[Dead Duck]

Maybe I have (or someone else has) but I don't remember, so I will ask

I believe we all agree on some issues:

The Bible is God's Inspired Book for all mankind
Jesus born of a virgin.
Jesus God is God in the flesh
Jesus died for our sins
Jesus rose on the 3rd day
Jesus ascended into heaven and is with God
If we accept Jesus as Lord, place our faith in Him and confess our sins to Jesus and repent of our ways, we will be saved.

This is as basic as it gets......do you believe there is more? Less?

Remove the doctrines and the frills. Someone is dying on the street and asks you, what must I do, please help me.

What do you say?

Simplicity at it's finest.

ONE COMING UP! (ding)

 

[foszoe]

1) Once saved, always saved - this protestant does not subscribe to that (another topic gonna surface again)

2) God said, God spoke, God laid in on my heart - only holds true if it aligns with scripture.....Understanding that the Holy Spirit works in all of us. Most every church that I have been to will quietly correct words of the flesh presented as God's word. Again, if it does not align, it must be corrected.

You have never been to "our" church or the churches I have attended. We follow the word, period. I have visited protestant churches and have walked out during service.....why? God laid it only heart that it was not where I should be - it didn't align with His word.

In all honesty, there are churches out there that share the characteristics of what you describe, but I would say not the majority.....not even close.

Now, if we wish to speak about non-biblical practices, not supported in Scripture (the Word), I think catholicism is right up there with the best of them. However the argument is that "tradition" adds to or further defines / explains areas that are absent from the bible or interpreted differently. It's an easy way out for the RCC, "we have God and tradition" to guide us. One can easily say that the "catholic church" should replace your "protestant movement" statement. It would make a much better fit.

Point 1 is evidence for my "point" as is point 2.

IF you don't believe in once saved, always saved, that's cool. I never said you did. However the point was not all protestants agree. I get posts directed to me here all the time from people who should know by now that I am Orthodox not Catholic but want to attribute Catholic beliefs or traditions to me. if you want to talk catholicism talk to a catholic. If you want an Orthodox perspective ask me. I am here in an attempt to help ignorance of the Orthodox faith held by ancient Christians from Pentecost to this day. One can easily say a lot of things, but that doesn't make them right. The danger in Protestantism though is a belief that one is talking to God and that belief is seldom cross checked with anyone or anything else except for one's own interpretation of the Bible.

Your definition of Tradition is mostly wrong. Tradition, if kept by protestants would keep you from having to walk out of their churches. The part of your tradition that is right explains the fragmentation of protestantism for each "church" follows its own interpretation.

 

[Ziggidy]

Point 1 is evidence for my "point" as is point 2.

IF you don't believe in once saved, always saved, that's cool. I never said you did. However the point was not all protestants agree. I get posts directed to me here all the time from people who should know by now that I am Orthodox not Catholic but want to attribute Catholic beliefs or traditions to me. if you want to talk catholicism talk to a catholic. If you want an Orthodox perspective ask me. I am here in an attempt to help ignorance of the Orthodox faith held by ancient Christians from Pentecost to this day. One can easily say a lot of things, but that doesn't make them right. The danger in Protestantism though is a belief that one is talking to God and that belief is seldom cross checked with anyone or anything else except for one's own interpretation of the Bible.

Your definition of Tradition is mostly wrong. Tradition, if kept by protestants would keep you from having to walk out of their churches. The part of your tradition that is right explains the fragmentation of protestantism for each "church" follows its own interpretation.

I get what you are saying, but understand that believing in once saved always is not a game changer to the individual who is saved. In other words that doctrine, whatever you wish to call it will not interfere with one's ability to go through the steps of salvation. Believing in that will not change anything and not believing in that will change anything.

The bible was written for all mankind. God's Holy Spirit is the great teacher or God's word.....why? Because the Holy Spirit is God. We are told the Holy Spirit will keep us in line. A fellowship of believers will collectively keep up strong in our faith - reminding us what is written and how it aligns with God's word.

You say the "danger of Protestantism" - my goodness. You have a church filled with "tradition" that has evolved from man, mandating bizarre and ritualistic activities and sending people to limbo (wherever the heck that is), said Hail Mary's for punishment, worshiping statues, truly believe the wafer is "the" body of Christ......PLEASE - don't lecture me on the problems of the Protestant "movement". I worship God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit - ONE GOD. His word tells me what I need to do to get to heaven. Anything outside those instructions are man-made, period.

Talking with God, you feel that may be a problem. I, seeking God's word.....going after His heart, wanting Him and I feel he talks to me. Who are you to say He did not? I share (as we do very often) and sometimes I may tell someone, are you sure and why? If it aligns with God, who is anyone to say otherwise.....UNLESS you do not feel God still talks to people.

I think some people look for excuses to minimize protestants in order to raise themselves; or their own faith. To me RCC and such ARE fringe religions but have allot of hope as long as their hope is in Christ and Christ alone. The off the wall unsupported stuff is bad stuff........