CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[historian]

historian - I'll pray for you.

I'm afraid I can't connect to your feeling. I've always felt a connection to God, even when I was struggling with Catholicism/Christianity/organized religion.

My sense is that your review of the Bible verses, and the teachings of certain preachers, is hitting your confirmation bias. You're kinda literally finding what you are seeking: proof that you don't have "it."

You were created with the opportunity to have "it."

And, to echo a bit of what Jetta's stated, many of those who we would view as having lived VERY devoutly expressed disappointment with their failings. There's a phrase that currently escapes me for it, but the idea is that our human fallibility can partially blind us to how we DO have "it."

I don't know...maybe I wasn't created to have it. I might have been created to not have it. And trust me. I don't read Piper to get confirmation bias. I really hate reading Piper. It is such a slog.

 

[T.Lex]

IMHO, the Lord reaches all of us differently, because we are created to be different.

If Christ is the light, and you are turned away from it, all you see is shadow, and everything else illuminated.

I welcome your (virtual) companionship (here on INGO) on this spiritual journey through life.

 

[historian]

IMHO, the Lord reaches all of us differently, because we are created to be different.

Thanks Origin.

If Christ is the light, and you are turned away from it, all you see is shadow, and everything else illuminated.

Thanks Plato.

I welcome your (virtual) companionship (here on INGO) on this spiritual journey through life.

I always appreciate your perspective.

DO YOU WANT TO STEP OUTSIDE!!! HUH!!!! DO YOU!!!! (Because I don't. It is cold)

 

[CampingJosh]

I'll address the easy one here:
If everyone goes to Heaven, well... God didn't do anything special for me, did he? Why should I be thankful that I got a free gift that I was guaranteed to get?

No, I'm thankful he chose me but did not have to, and I am undeserving of that gift of grace. That shows glory - that he made a sacrifice (his Son), for me, when I couldn't pay the debt I owed.


If there's no sin, and no suffering, then there's no value to salvation. In that case it'd be pointless - "Hey, here's a gift. What? You already have it? Oh..."

I don't mean to imply that all are saved. That is what I pray for, but I don't see Scripture teaching it.
But if not everyone could be saved, then there are two classes of humans: the loved whom Christ died for and the unloved for whom He did not.

It's quite possible to be thankful for a gift even if everyone else receives the same gift. That's a silly objection.

I think there's a difference between God foreknowing and God forbidding. I think that distinction matters.

It seems heretical to me to think that God is most glorified because humans sinned and needed salvation and so He could then provide it. That would indicate God needs sin for His glory.

 

[CampingJosh]

I'm inclined to wonder if there's other issues, i.e. depression. But that's probably not something to discuss on this forum. From a spiritual point of view, the enemy works hardest when we're on the right track, and sanctification ain't a light switch - it's a dimmer.

It sounds like historian is perhaps in a dark night of the soul.

 

[historian]

It sounds like historian is perhaps in a dark night of the soul.

Not quite. More coming to acceptance of facts that I've been trying to ignore for 30ish years.

 

[JettaKnight]

I don't mean to imply that all are saved. That is what I pray for, but I don't see Scripture teaching it.
But if not everyone could be saved, then there are two classes of humans: the loved whom Christ died for and the unloved for whom He did not.

It's quite possible to be thankful for a gift even if everyone else receives the same gift. That's a silly objection.

I think there's a difference between God foreknowing and God forbidding. I think that distinction matters.

It seems heretical to me to think that God is most glorified because humans sinned and needed salvation and so He could then provide it. That would indicate God needs sin for His glory.

If Pharaoh didn't enslave the Israelites and ignore the signs, then would there be a Passover?

And without Passover, would Christ have died?

And if Christ didn't die, would I care as much?



Without Pharaoh, the arc of redemption would have been broken. You can argue God forced Pharaoh, or just knew that Pharaoh was going to be jerk - it doesn't matter. What matters is that, yes, Pharaoh's defiance was required to make redemption as potent as it was. Wasn't Christ death an act of sin on the part of Jews and Romans? Wtihout that sin, what would have happened? Jesus drinks hemlock?

There's a whole bunch of situations where someone's sin lead to a glorifying of God. Did God cause it or did he just know? I don't think it pragmatically matters.

Last one: Would Paul's testimony be as great if he wasn't converted from Saul?

 

[foszoe]

The example of the saints is that they would prefer to say that God never spoke to them and thus accidentally ignore an angelic voice than to mistake a voice that is not God’s for the true divine word.

 

[CampingJosh]

If Pharaoh didn't enslave the Israelites and ignore the signs, then would there be a Passover?

Before God hardened Pharaoh's heart Pharaoh repeatedly hardened his own heart. That sounds a lot more like turning him over to his own sinful desires than like God causing Pharaoh to sin.

Without Pharaoh, the arc of redemption would have been broken. You can argue God forced Pharaoh, or just knew that Pharaoh was going to be jerk - it doesn't matter. What matters is that, yes, Pharaoh's defiance was required to make redemption as potent as it was. Wasn't Christ death an act of sin on the part of Jews and Romans? Wtihout that sin, what would have happened? Jesus drinks hemlock?

There's a whole bunch of situations where someone's sin lead to a glorifying of God. Did God cause it or did he just know? I don't think it pragmatically matters.

It does matter to God's righteousness if He is responsible for sin.

And redemption would be just as potent without Pharoah. The story by which we understand it would be different, but I believe that God could have provided in another setup.

Last one: Would Paul's testimony be as great if he wasn't converted from Saul?

Likely not. But that Christ revealed Himself to to Saul is not at all evidence that Christ caused Saul to be the chief of sinners in the first place.

 

[rvb]

Nope, I'm not seeing what you're seeing...


Jesus lays out the cost of following him - (A) This is a rough life. Can you live without creature comforts? (B) Follow me now, don't wait for your dad to die and his estate to be settled.

Both of those people made a choice to ignore Jesus.

About that, I doubt it's a literal corpse requiring burial, but more like a terminally ill parent and an estate to deal with. At least that's how it's been explained to me.

A choice?! How very un-Calvinistic

And I've heard/read some explanations like you that say that the Jewish burial laws were quite extensive, taking months to complete. And this passage is more an indictment of the religious law than of the man. Likely this man's father had already been "buried" as we know it, which is required to be completed very soon after death, but the man felt obligated to complete the rituals. The man may well have been saying "I'll be along in a few months."

I recall that after the body decomposed, the body (bones) were to be moved and RE-buried along beside ancestors. So don't picture someone whose Dad died a couple hours ago, picture someone whose Dad died a while ago, who feels they have an obligation to hang around a few months to move some bones around.

Like many times when Jesus speaks, he's saying more than we immediately hear. Jesus fulfilled the law. Who are the dead that are burying the dead? Not literally a zombie gravedigger crew... so I think the dead are those who follow the law, but not Jesus... those without true salvation. Jesus is saying "come with me, don't focus on rituals and end up dead to me." The man put more faith in the rituals than in Jesus.

-rvb

ETA:

Here's a link I found on a very quick search that describes the timeline...
Timeline for Jewish Traditions in Death and Mourning

Notice, it describes a year of rituals....

Jesus is saying to forget all that. Jesus fulfills the law for us.

ETA #2: Found a good link describing the "re-burying" a year later...
Death and Burial at the Time of Jesus - Community in Mission : Community in Mission

 

[JettaKnight]

Before God hardened Pharaoh's heart Pharaoh repeatedly hardened his own heart. That sounds a lot more like turning him over to his own sinful desires than like God causing Pharaoh to sin.



It does matter to God's righteousness if He is responsible for sin.

And redemption would be just as potent without Pharoah. The story by which we understand it would be different, but I believe that God could have provided in another setup.



Likely not. But that Christ revealed Himself to to Saul is not at all evidence that Christ caused Saul to be the chief of sinners in the first place.

You're caught up in this trap of "what's the cause" of sin. To me, I don't care to carry it much further than "God allows it." Furthermore, I think it's enough to say that because it exist, God shall use it for his glory.

 

[2A_Tom]

Pharaoh loved the Jews and gave them the land of Goshen, one of the most fertile and lush regions of the land. He fed them and employed them to care for their livestock.

Then there rose up a Pharaoh who knew not Joseph.

If you look at statistics of Christians v. unbelievers (unbelief is the only sin that will keep you out of Heaven) it is inevitable that that a man would rise to power eventually that would not respect what the Jews had done for Egypt.

 

[Dead Duck]

Pharaoh loved the Jews and gave them the land of Goshen, one of the most fertile and lush regions of the land. He fed them and employed them to care for their livestock.

Then there rose up a Pharaoh who knew not Joseph.

If you look at statistics of Christians v. unbelievers (unbelief is the only sin that will keep you out of Heaven) it is inevitable that that a man would rise to power eventually that would not respect what the Jews had done for Egypt.

Trust me.... Goshen's OK but it's not that nice.

 

[CampingJosh]

You're caught up in this trap of "what's the cause" of sin. To me, I don't care to carry it much further than "God allows it." Furthermore, I think it's enough to say that because it exist, God shall use it for his glory.

That feels like throwing away our starting point: if people can act or if only God can.

 

[NKBJ]

An interesting discussion on Christians being convinced by design to abdicate their responsibility in maintaining the culture of our country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-mBPjVIoGA

 

[rvb]

This isn't a slump. It is a constant. I have never had "the joy, joy, joy, joy down in my heart." I have never seen the Word the way that Christians should. I have never been able to win against sin. Sin keeps getting easier, not harder.

I think that knowing Christ can give you joy and peace, but I don't think it will change your disposition and make you into some cheerful happy-go-lucky, dance-down-the-isle kind of person. maybe it's an expectation issue? maybe it's a question of whether your church environment is a good fit for you. If your church body is a dance and clap type of body and that's not who you are, maybe a change is in order? Feeling like you are being forced into being someone you are not can become a wedge for sure.

The closer we get to God, and the more we try to influence the world towards Him, the more great deceiver attacks and tempts us. I believe I have seen this battle waged many times. It is especially true of new believers where Satan thinks he has a chance to turn you from Christ. To think that being a believer means the temptations will go away, IMO, a false hope. However, the more rooted we are in God and the Word, the easier it is to ignore temptation, and the more we ignore it the more Satan recognizes the attempts as futile; he attacks where we are weakest.

I write this hoping to give you some comfort in your faith, that if you have faith we can't say "you're experiencing it wrong." Pure joy and sin free are high expectations!

-rvb

 

[historian]

I think that knowing Christ can give you joy and peace, but I don't think it will change your disposition and make you into some cheerful happy-go-lucky, dance-down-the-isle kind of person. maybe it's an expectation issue? maybe it's a question of whether your church environment is a good fit for you. If your church body is a dance and clap type of body and that's not who you are, maybe a change is in order? Feeling like you are being forced into being someone you are not can become a wedge for sure.

The closer we get to God, and the more we try to influence the world towards Him, the more great deceiver attacks and tempts us. I believe I have seen this battle waged many times. It is especially true of new believers where Satan thinks he has a chance to turn you from Christ. To think that being a believer means the temptations will go away, IMO, a false hope. However, the more rooted we are in God and the Word, the easier it is to ignore temptation, and the more we ignore it the more Satan recognizes the attempts as futile; he attacks where we are weakest.

I write this hoping to give you some comfort in your faith, that if you have faith we can't say "you're experiencing it wrong." Pure joy and sin free are high expectations!

-rvb

Thanks Ryan.

I'm a Baptist. We keep our hands in our pockets for two reasons: so we don't wave them around during the music and so our money doesn't jump out of our pocket during offering!

I'm just not having any joy or peace and never have. The only peace I get is from stoicism, not from Christianity.

Bible reading is a chore. I never get anything out of it. It is checking a box. I haven't done it for two weeks, and the only difference is that I have a free half an hour every day.

 

[PaulF]

Thanks Ryan.

I'm a Baptist. We keep our hands in our pockets for two reasons: so we don't wave them around during the music and so our money doesn't jump out of our pocket during offering!

I'm just not having any joy or peace and never have. The only peace I get is from stoicism, not from Christianity.

Bible reading is a chore. I never get anything out of it. It is checking a box. I haven't done it for two weeks, and the only difference is that I have a free half an hour every day.

I have been following this thread closely, trying to decide if my voice is warranted or welcome...screw it, you guys get to hear it:

The Bible's description of God is imperfect because the people that wrote the book were imperfect. At best, the depiction of God found in the Bible is a caricature, an imagining...a fiction.

This is one of the realization I had that led me to avowed atheism...Cristianity asks you to take or leave the whole thing as a piece...this is God, this is what He does, and this is who is benefitted. Any departure from the path (like, say, universal salvation) must be rejected to be accepted as a "believer".

There are as many descriptions of God as there are people...nobody has gotten it right, and it's okay to look for God beyond the words of other men. Christians would have you believe that God is involved in a conversation with you and you can be aware of his presence if you "feel" for it...

...well, I've never felt the "God" feeling, and believe me I've looked. Moreover, if the only comprehendible voice in a given space is your own, are you really having a conversation?

I've talked and talked and talked...if God wants my service all he has to do is talk to me...and believe it or not, I'm still listening.

Keep your head up, brother. If you need a sounding board feel free to use me.

 

[historian]

I have been following this thread closely, trying to decide if my voice is warranted or welcome...screw it, you guys get to hear it:

The Bible's description of God is imperfect because the people that wrote the book were imperfect. At best, the depiction of God found in the Bible is a caricature, an imagining...a fiction.

This is one of the realization I had that led me to avowed atheism...Cristianity asks you to take or leave the whole thing as a piece...this is God, this is what He does, and this is who is benefitted. Any departure from the path (like, say, universal salvation) must be rejected to be accepted as a "believer".

There are as many descriptions of God as there are people...nobody has gotten it right, and it's okay to look for God beyond the words of other men. Christians would have you believe that God is involved in a conversation with you and you can be aware of his presence if you "feel" for it...

...well, I've never felt the "God" feeling, and believe me I've looked. Moreover, if the only comprehendible voice in a given space is your own, are you really having a conversation?

I've talked and talked and talked...if God wants my service all he has to do is talk to me...and believe it or not, I'm still listening.

Keep your head up, brother. If you need a sounding board feel free to use me.

Thanks Paul. I appreciate it. I was actually thinking of you when I first opened up on this here. I do not want to be a stumbling block for you. I want you to know that I do come from a different place. I still do not doubt the Bible in any way. I still hold it to be inerrant. That is the cause of my despair. I have come much closer to JKs position over the past 5 years. That leads me to this place, which isn't good. I apologize if I have caused you any more doubt. I still think of you often and hope that you come to a saving knowledge of Christ.

Thanks again!

 

[JettaKnight]

So I re-read "Stop Asking Jesus..." last night (or at least through chapter four), and man, Historian, it's squarely aimed at you.

Rather than poo-poo it for the title, give it a read. I have an extra copy I'll be happy to send you.