CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[ArcadiaGP]

I personally only do that in open fora. It is in deference to my Jewish brethren. They do not spell out terms attributed to deity or speak them aloud except in religious services.

If I were to PM you I would not do that.

Ahhh gotcha, thanks!

 

[T.Lex]

question, pardon the interruption

Why self-censor "God" and "Lord"?

I thought that was only an "in vain" thing. Christianity doesn't have a "don't draw muhammad" thing, does it?

As I understand that thread of tradition, it actually goes back to pre-Christian Judaism, where the word for God was not actually written - at least not in its entirety. It is described as the very sci-fi-sounding Tetragrammatron. It consists of the 4 consonants to mean the "name" of God. The actual name was very highly revered.

 

[foszoe]

I see Calvinism exactly as Historian stated it. You can't do anything about your eternal destination. You either have it or you don't. I have sympathy for Historian, the person, but he is ending up exactly where the theology ultimately leads and in that paradigm my sympathy, prayers, or well wishes don't really matter.

 

[historian]

Yeah, I'm not understanding it either. It smacks of Christian elitism.

Historian, are you saying that there's a whole bunch of people living out a Christian life (as close as humanly possible), who believe they have a personal relationship with Christ, who hold to a traditional core set of doctrines, etc., etc., yet aren't Christians?

Well, Yes.

What's the basis for this belief? Can you show some anecdotal Biblical character exhibiting this?

Matthew 7:21-23

EDIT: Can you show a person that had a clear and sincere desire to follow Christ, yet was turned away?

Matthew 8:18-22

 

[foszoe]

i am just glad God preordained that Purdue would win the Oaken Bucket game this year. Now if only Jeff Brohm could be predestined to stay in West Lafayette.

 

[historian]

Wow! You believe you are going to spend eternity in everlasting fire and that G-d wants you to go there just because he doesn't care to have you spend eternity with him and you are cool with that. Wow!

Not really cool with it, but accepting of it.

Romans 9:19-23 lays it out pretty clearly. If you are not a "vessel for honorable use" it doesn't matter. I have no right to answer back to God. He doesn't have to explain himself.

 

[historian]

i am just glad God preordained that Purdue would win the Oaken Bucket game this year. Now if only Jeff Brohm could be predestined to stay in West Lafayette.

Yeah. I'm an IU fan. So there is another strike against predestination .

Leave Jeff Leave! At least we didn't lose to a directional MI team.

 

[foszoe]

In case anyone is interested, Calvinism is not just for theologians anymore either. The illusion of Free Will has went mainstream science!

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/662/where-there-is-a-will/act-two-4

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4887467/

There are 4 fundamental forces that determine all outcomes

 

[T.Lex]

Not really cool with it, but accepting of it.

Romans 9:19-23 lays it out pretty clearly. If you are not a "vessel for honorable use" it doesn't matter. I have no right to answer back to God. He doesn't have to explain himself.

To me, the proffered interpretation is actually an inversion of that passage.

God has the authority, of course, to create that which will deny Him for His purposes. But that is the exception, rather than the rule. Again, taking the entirety of the Gospels and Bible together, humanity is generally blessed to be a creation that searches for Him, that desires to join with Him. Or even, at a minimum, has the opportunity to exercise free will to join Him.

 

[2A_Tom]

G-d is omniscient. He has total foreknowledge. He uses those that reject His sovereignty (Pharaoh and Judas as examples) To ful fill his plans.

Pharaoh's heart was already set to keep his slaves at any cost. G-d used that and hardened his heart to cause maximum desire in the Egyptians to expel the Jews.

Judas was an unrepentant thief that never believed and G-d used him to fulfill His design of blood atonement by our High Priest.

 

[Dead Duck]

I love Calvinism!

 

[2A_Tom]

Just for fun. I actually left out the word tetragramation on purpose.

[video=youtube;FQ5YU_spBw0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ5YU_spBw0[/video]

 

[rvb]

We also know that God hardens the heart of those he wishes to use for his glory.


I'm no expert theologian (I just play one on INGO ), and I don't have any spare time today, but I have a few leading questions:

• Who are we to define what love is?
• That some are lost and some are saved brings glory to God, and isn't that our chief purpose?
• If we're the ones in control, doesn't that leave God powerless in that matter?

If I'm honest, the whole soteriological thing is a mystery (hence the reason Christians split on it), one camp has Jesus sitting in Heaven, "Choose me! Choose me!". The other camp has Christ forced up on them. Of course, this a silly simplification, but somewhat true.

I squarely view God as strong and I am weak. If that means I don't have free will, so be it - my will is controlled by a perfect God, and that's much better than me deciding my fate.



Calvinism, like believer's baptism, is something I hold pretty tightly, but I not willing to be arrogant about it. There's room for differing opinions in the church on these matters. It's one of those things where I say, "I think you're wrong."

There's plenty of other things where I'll openly say, "You're wrong." (e.g. Immaculate Conception, modalism, gay marriage, church dinners without casseroles)

The Bible defines love for us. Love is patient, love is kind .......

As in many things, I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Especially in these areas where you can excerpt different parts of the Bible leading to opposing conclusions.... the truth is in the entirety.
I believe God hardened pharaoh's heart, and used him for His purpose, despite pharaoh being at the tipping point of becoming a believer. If God predestines a purpose for you, then, well .... His Will be Done! I also believe that Jesus came in hope of saving us all... always hoping, always persevering, and never failing (tie back to 1 Cor 13).

Part of love is trust... and he has to trust that we will make the right choice. Unfortunately, trust can be betrayed by those you love.

Where I struggle with Calvinism is how that definition of Love ties with the idea that God creates most people KNOWING they will end up burning for eternity. There is no hope in that. no trust. no patience, or kindness. That's not according to rvb's definition of love, that's from 1 Corinthians' definition. The hope and trust (aka Love) God has for us lies in our free will to choose Him.... unless he has other purposes in mind for you, specifically.

just a quick 2c ...

-rvb

 

[T.Lex]

G-d is omniscient. He has total foreknowledge. He uses those that reject His sovereignty (Pharaoh and Judas as examples) To ful fill his plans.

Yes, but that's the key, right? TOTAL foreknowledge... of every permutation of every choice we make by free will.

Pharaoh relented. He let the Jews flee. Then he changed his mind, which required Moses - acting by the will of God - to commit more miracles, to God's glory. If he hadn't changed his mind, well... that part of the Bible would've been shorter, but no less a testament to God's plan for His people.

Judas felt remorse. But instead of turning to God for forgiveness, he let his despair lead him into deeper sin.

Regardless, my point is that God knows every choice we will have to face, and every permutation of each of those (legitimate multiverse reference there). Based on other parts of the Gospels (and other parts of the Bible), He wants us to join him in everlasting love. At that level, we are all "chosen" to have the opportunity (notwithstanding some that he might create that don't have that opportunity), but He also knows that not all of us will make the choices necessary.

And before this turns into an act-based thing, that's not what I mean. The initial choice - to accept and love God with all our heart - is the most important. Someone who doesn't do that, well, they don't have a very good chance of making any other choice correctly, do they?

Moreover, going back to the omniscience and creator idea, He also knows our faults. Or susceptibility to temptations. We are all different and have different... stressors. He created us that way because overcoming those gives Him the greater glory. We are preordained to have those faults/temptations. Our responses, while likely constrained to a relatively finite set, are not preordained, but God already knows all the potential outcomes.

As usual, this is not intended as a recitation of Catholic dogma on the subject. Rather, it is my own fallible attempt at understanding.

 

[JettaKnight]

Well, Yes.

Wow.

Matthew 7:21-23

I see this as targeting the Benny Hinns, Rob Bells, and Joel Osteens of the world.

I.e. The people that deny the God of the Bible and set up their own deity that's more favorable to them.

Matthew 8:18-22

I thought you might point to those two. They're nameless men who decided the cost of discipleship was too high for them.

 

[historian]

Wow.




I see this as targeting the Benny Hinns, Rob Bells, and Joel Osteens of the world.

I.e. The people that deny the God of the Bible and set up their own deity that's more favorable to them.

I thought you might point to those two. They're nameless men who decided the cost of discipleship was too high for them.

See...that is how you see it. However, the plain reading is that many will do great things in the name of Christ and will not be chosen.

As for the two men, it doesn't say that the cost is too high. It can be interpreted that way for sure (and has often been), but it isn't exactly quite explained that way. Christ turned them away.

 

[historian]

As for the two men, it doesn't say that the cost is too high. It can be interpreted that way for sure (and has often been), but it isn't exactly quite explained that way. Christ turned them away.

I was thinking about this last night (at our Gideon's meeting, irony!). The rich young ruler walked away when he was told the cost. Theses guys didn't walk away, they were turned away.

 

[T.Lex]

I was thinking about this last night (at our Gideon's meeting, irony!). The rich young ruler walked away when he was told the cost. Theses guys didn't walk away, they were turned away.

Can you share the reference that leads you to believe that, or cross-reference it with something?

I'm very curious how you got to that conclusion, since it is so diametrically different from my own personal assessment of that passage.

To be clear, I REALLY don't want this to sound confrontational. I'm just struggling to understand that approach.

 

[historian]

Can you share the reference that leads you to believe that, or cross-reference it with something?

I'm very curious how you got to that conclusion, since it is so diametrically different from my own personal assessment of that passage.

To be clear, I REALLY don't want this to sound confrontational. I'm just struggling to understand that approach.

No worries. Here is the rich young ruler (mo money, mo problems):

[h=3]The Rich Young Man[/h][FONT=&quot]17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” 21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, “Children, how difficult it is[b] to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him,[c] “Then who can be saved?” 27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.” 28 Peter began to say to him, “See, we have left everything and followed you.” 29 Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”

And here is the dudes in Matthew 8

18 Now when Jesus saw a crowd around him, he gave orders to go over to the other side. 19 And a scribe came up and said to him, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.” 20 And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.” 21 Another of the disciples said to him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” 22 And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”

Now these dudes didn't walk away. Jesus basically told them to buzz off.[/FONT]

 

[T.Lex]

No worries. Here is the rich young ruler (mo money, mo problems):

And here is the dudes in Matthew 8

Now these dudes didn't walk away. Jesus basically told them to buzz off.[/FONT]

Right - I know the passages (and had looked them up when you posted).

But what specifically brings you to the conclusion that Jesus told them to "buzz off"?

Both times (or 3, depending on how you count), Jesus simply described the lifestyle (so to speak) expected. There wasn't a "begone" among them. In 2 of the cases, Jesus specifically invited the applicant to "follow me."

Personally, how do you from "follow me" to "leave me alone"?

Again, not trying to be confrontational. (Probably not doing a good job at that!)