CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[historian]

Right - I know the passages (and had looked them up when you posted).

But what specifically brings you to the conclusion that Jesus told them to "buzz off"?

Both times (or 3, depending on how you count), Jesus simply described the lifestyle (so to speak) expected. There wasn't a "begone" among them. In 2 of the cases, Jesus specifically invited the applicant to "follow me."

Personally, how do you from "follow me" to "leave me alone"?

Again, not trying to be confrontational. (Probably not doing a good job at that!)

WHAT YOU WANNA FIGHT!!! HUH!!!!

Next time at a funeral, tell the grieving child to "let the dead bury the dead" and see how it goes over. It is overly harsh and hard. Look at the rich young ruler. Similar situation, but Jesus says, "look, here is what you have to do" and it is a much more gentle tone.

 

[CampingJosh]

We also know that God hardens the heart of those he wishes to use for his glory.

We know that God turns people over to their own sinful desires (Romans 1:24). Why not the reverse?

• Who are we to define what love is?
• That some are lost and some are saved brings glory to God, and isn't that our chief purpose?
• If we're the ones in control, doesn't that leave God powerless in that matter?

• I try to use the God-breathed definition of love from 1 John 3:16. But if Christ didn't give himself up for some (which is, in my opinion, the only fair reading of a deterministic system in which some are lost), is that still love? Perhaps my real problem with Calvinism is that it creates for me a cognitive dissonance about God's character. His presentation of Himself in Scripture seems to preclude some of the logical consequences of Calvinism.
• How does it bring glory to God that some are lost? I understand that God can be glorified despite some being lost; but if God is the sole actor, then we must figure that the reality of some being lost itself glorifies God.
• Is God powerless to stop sin? If not, then are we to assume that some sins are for God's glory? I don't see delegation as a loss of sovereignty.

I squarely view God as strong and I am weak. If that means I don't have free will, so be it - my will is controlled by a perfect God, and that's much better than me deciding my fate.

But I know my own will, and that is something I definitely cannot attribute to a loving God.
And again, I don't see delegation as a sign of weakness.

I realize that my struggles with Calvinism might just be a mental block in my own head, but if that is the case, it's probably for God's glory. After all, if I have an idea that is making me think badly of God, then clearly I am misunderstanding something. But I really can't see how it could possibly be the truth.

 

[T.Lex]

WHAT YOU WANNA FIGHT!!! HUH!!!!

That's the INGO spirit.

Next time at a funeral, tell the grieving child to "let the dead bury the dead" and see how it goes over. It is overly harsh and hard.

Well, first, I think we can assume the disciple in question was an adult. Second, I'm not sure I would evaluate Jesus's teaching methods as "overly" anything.

My impression, and this is based in part on a sermon I heard about this a long time ago, was that this guy was someone that wanted to "follow" Jesus as long as he stayed around his hometown. That is, when it was convenient for him. He was basically looking for an excuse to NOT completely commit to following Jesus.

So let's bring that question home, if answer Jesus's call meant not attending the funeral of your parent, which would you choose?

Look at the rich young ruler. Similar situation, but Jesus says, "look, here is what you have to do" and it is a much more gentle tone.

It is, and it lays out the choice that must be made. The rich man was unable to part with his earthly hindrances.

 

[JettaKnight]

WHAT YOU WANNA FIGHT!!! HUH!!!!

Next time at a funeral, tell the grieving child to "let the dead bury the dead" and see how it goes over. It is overly harsh and hard. Look at the rich young ruler. Similar situation, but Jesus says, "look, here is what you have to do" and it is a much more gentle tone.

Nope, I'm not seeing what you're seeing...


Jesus lays out the cost of following him - (A) This is a rough life. Can you live without creature comforts? (B) Follow me now, don't wait for your dad to die and his estate to be settled.

Both of those people made a choice to ignore Jesus.

About that, I doubt it's a literal corpse requiring burial, but more like a terminally ill parent and an estate to deal with. At least that's how it's been explained to me.



Sure, there will be those who are told to depart, but there will be a reason for it, not just, "you're not on the super-secret guest list." I think that goes deep into hyper-Calvinism, does it not?

No section of the Bible can be taken alone, otherwise, we're all screwed when it comes to the Beatitudes, no? What about the Great Commission? Why am I sharing the Gospel only to find out in the end that I gave a bunch of people false hope of salvation because they aren't on the list?

I like Piper. I like Edwards. I confess that I haven't read enough of their works... nevertheless, they are not the Bible.

Some levity:
https://babylonbee.com/news/john-piper-opens-christian-hedonism-resort

https://babylonbee.com/news/john-pi...y-wasting-full-minute-life-playing-video-game

 

[JettaKnight]

• I try to use the God-breathed definition of love from 1 John 3:16. But if Christ didn't give himself up for some (which is, in my opinion, the only fair reading of a deterministic system in which some are lost), is that still love? Perhaps my real problem with Calvinism is that it creates for me a cognitive dissonance about God's character. His presentation of Himself in Scripture seems to preclude some of the logical consequences of Calvinism.
• How does it bring glory to God that some are lost? I understand that God can be glorified despite some being lost; but if God is the sole actor, then we must figure that the reality of some being lost itself glorifies God.
• Is God powerless to stop sin? If not, then are we to assume that some sins are for God's glory? I don't see delegation as a loss of sovereignty.

I'll address the easy one here:
If everyone goes to Heaven, well... God didn't do anything special for me, did he? Why should I be thankful that I got a free gift that I was guaranteed to get?

No, I'm thankful he chose me but did not have to, and I am undeserving of that gift of grace. That shows glory - that he made a sacrifice (his Son), for me, when I couldn't pay the debt I owed.


If there's no sin, and no suffering, then there's no value to salvation. In that case it'd be pointless - "Hey, here's a gift. What? You already have it? Oh..."

 

[JettaKnight]

So let's bring that question home, if answer Jesus's call meant not attending the funeral of your parent, which would you choose?

Let me up the ante: What if the call is to pack up and move to China? And sell off all your guns!

 

[T.Lex]

Let me up the ante: What if the call is to pack up and move to China? And sell off all your guns!

Sell? I think Jesus's request might be to give them away.

 

[historian]

I'll address the easy one here:
If everyone goes to Heaven, well... God didn't do anything special for me, did he? Why should I be thankful that I got a free gift that I was guaranteed to get?

No, I'm thankful he chose me but did not have to, and I am undeserving of that gift of grace. That shows glory - that he made a sacrifice (his Son), for me, when I couldn't pay the debt I owed.


If there's no sin, and no suffering, then there's no value to salvation. In that case it'd be pointless - "Hey, here's a gift. What? You already have it? Oh..."

Bingo. Since only some are saved, and it isn't up to us to pick the winners and the losers. I guess I'm probably in the loser category because I don't have "it."

 

[historian]

Sell? I think Jesus's request might be to give them away.

Glory! As I'm in the pagan land of Michigan, you can give them to me!

It reminds me of a chapter in a book on British colonization. Something to the effect of "Spreading the Good News with the Maxim Gun."

 

[T.Lex]

I guess I'm probably in the loser category because I don't have "it."

Have what? Or, and this may be crossing a line, how do you know that you lack it?

 

[historian]

Have what? Or, and this may be crossing a line, how do you know that you lack it?

The innate indwelling of the Spirit. I know it is lacking because the flesh is weak, the Word isn't illuminated, and joy does not, nor has it ever, existed.

 

[JettaKnight]

Glory! As I'm in the pagan land of Michigan, you can give them to me!

It reminds me of a chapter in a book on British colonization. Something to the effect of "Spreading the Good News with the Maxim Gun."

Pagan? Grand Rapids is there - aka the Mecca of the Reformed. (no coincidence that Founders Brewery is too!)

Bingo. Since only some are saved, and it isn't up to us to pick the winners and the losers. I guess I'm probably in the loser category because I don't have "it."

What gives you this notion? A gut feeling? How does this square up against Ephesians 1:11-14?

EDIT:

The innate indwelling of the Spirit. I know it is lacking because the flesh is weak, the Word isn't illuminated, and joy does not, nor has it ever, existed.

So it's a feeling. I get that. You're in a slump. But my wife's therapist is having to constantly remind her, "What you're feeling isn't what you know to be true. Focus on the truth you know, and tell yourself these feelings aren't true."

You've fixated on a few passages and placed them above the overwhelming instances of God's love and grace for you.


Do you think there is one Christian anywhere that doesn't struggle against the flesh or occasionally think that Bible study is boring, or think the Holy Spirit isn't alive in them? Do you think Christians don't ever feel a lack of joy in their lives?

So because you have the same feelings of every Christian since the beginning of Christianity, you think that Christ is going to ignore you knocking on the door?


My first reaction is to say, "Suck it up, buttercup - this is what running the race is like. There's swampy valleys you got to slog through and cling tight to your salvation."


I'll let you know what my second reaction is when I get it.

EDIT2: My second reaction is you sound like those Christians walking on eggshells so they don't commit, "the unpardonable sin", or those that are constantly worried about, "the mark of the Beast."

About that latter one: there was an older woman that stood up in my country church and recounted how she stood firm for Christ because she refused to accept a license plate that had "666" embedded in the numbering. I believe she honestly thought that if she accepted this she would be diminishing Christ and endangering her salvation.

 

[historian]

Pagan? Grand Rapids is there - aka the Mecca of the Reformed. (no coincidence that Founders Brewery is too!)

Yes! So Called "Christians" who drink! The scandal!!!!

What gives you this notion? A gut feeling? How does this square up against Ephesians 1:11-14?

I have fought with it for a while, but reading Edward (err...Piper) on the inerrant Word and listening to the pastor on Sunday talking about Moses having to wear a veil and us not having to really hit it home.

 

[historian]

What gives you this notion? A gut feeling? How does this square up against Ephesians 1:11-14?

Also, Eph. 1:11 is for those who were picked. Not for the rest of us.

 

[JettaKnight]

Yes! So Called "Christians" who drink! The scandal!!!!

You replied before my edits. Go read them.


https://babylonbee.com/news/local-calvinist-completes-three-day-fast-craft-beer

https://babylonbee.com/news/study-calvinists-comprised-72-craft-beer

 

[historian]

So it's a feeling. I get that. You're in a slump. But my wife's therapist is having to constantly remind her, "What you're feeling isn't what you know to be true. Focus on the truth you know, and tell yourself these feelings aren't true."

You've fixated on a few passages and placed them above the overwhelming instances of God's love and grace for you.


Do you think there is one Christian anywhere that doesn't struggle against the flesh or occasionally think that Bible study is boring, or think the Holy Spirit isn't alive in them? Do you think Christians don't ever feel a lack of joy in their lives?

So because you have the same feelings of every Christian since the beginning of Christianity, you think that Christ is going to ignore you knocking on the door?


My first reaction is to say, "Suck it up, buttercup - this is what running the race is like. There's swampy valleys you got to slog through and cling tight to your salvation."


I'll let you know what my second reaction is when I get it.

This isn't a slump. It is a constant. I have never had "the joy, joy, joy, joy down in my heart." I have never seen the Word the way that Christians should. I have never been able to win against sin. Sin keeps getting easier, not harder.

 

[historian]

You replied before my edits. Go read them.


https://babylonbee.com/news/local-calvinist-completes-three-day-fast-craft-beer

https://babylonbee.com/news/study-calvinists-comprised-72-craft-beer

I replied to your edits too! Now grab your IPA and read away!

 

[T.Lex]

historian - I'll pray for you.

I'm afraid I can't connect to your feeling. I've always felt a connection to God, even when I was struggling with Catholicism/Christianity/organized religion.

My sense is that your review of the Bible verses, and the teachings of certain preachers, is hitting your confirmation bias. You're kinda literally finding what you are seeking: proof that you don't have "it."

You were created with the opportunity to have "it."

And, to echo a bit of what Jetta's stated, many of those who we would view as having lived VERY devoutly expressed disappointment with their failings. There's a phrase that currently escapes me for it, but the idea is that our human fallibility can partially blind us to how we DO have "it."

 

[JettaKnight]

This isn't a slump. It is a constant. I have never had "the joy, joy, joy, joy down in my heart." I have never seen the Word the way that Christians should. I have never been able to win against sin. Sin keeps getting easier, not harder.

I dunno at this point. You claim to love Christ (from my point of view you're actively seeking him out), but claim that he doesn't love you back.


I'm inclined to wonder if there's other issues, i.e. depression. But that's probably not something to discuss on this forum. From a spiritual point of view, the enemy works hardest when we're on the right track, and sanctification ain't a light switch - it's a dimmer.


I blame modern worship music and the happy, happy, joy, joy! POV on Christianity.

My sense is that your review of the Bible verses, and the teachings of certain preachers, is hitting your confirmation bias. You're kinda literally finding what you are seeking: proof that you don't have "it."

Oh - THIS!

 

[historian]

I dunno at this point. You claim to love Christ (from my point of view you're actively seeking him out), but claim that he doesn't love you back.

I don't know. I don't know if I love him. I tried, but I don't know.

I'm inclined to wonder if there's other issues, i.e. depression. But that's probably not something to discuss on this forum. From a spiritual point of view, the enemy works hardest when we're on the right track, and sanctification ain't a light switch - it's a dimmer.

Yeah. Well 33 years should have turned on some lights instead of stumbling around in the dark still.

I blame modern worship music and the happy, happy, joy, joy! POV on Christianity.

Yeah. But Paul had joy. A deep seated joy that I've never had and, TBQH, I think people who have it are weird.