CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[2A_Tom]

Just a bunch of automatons with no choice.

 

[JettaKnight]

Then what can 1 Timothy 2:4 or 2 Peter 3:9 mean? How can God want to save everyone, have the sole vote on each person, and choose not to save everyone?

We know that God allows people to make decisions that are contrary to His will. (The other option would be that God chooses for people to sin in the first place, which I think we agree is false and would be blasphemy to claim.) Why should we eliminate that God allows people to choose?

We also know that God hardens the heart of those he wishes to use for his glory.


I'm no expert theologian (I just play one on INGO ), and I don't have any spare time today, but I have a few leading questions:

• Who are we to define what love is?
• That some are lost and some are saved brings glory to God, and isn't that our chief purpose?
• If we're the ones in control, doesn't that leave God powerless in that matter?

If I'm honest, the whole soteriological thing is a mystery (hence the reason Christians split on it), one camp has Jesus sitting in Heaven, "Choose me! Choose me!". The other camp has Christ forced up on them. Of course, this a silly simplification, but somewhat true.

I squarely view God as strong and I am weak. If that means I don't have free will, so be it - my will is controlled by a perfect God, and that's much better than me deciding my fate.

I've read some of Sproul's stuff, and I found it... less than convincing. Tonight I downloaded Piper's Does God Desire All to Be Saved? There are a lot of Christians whom I respect who hold tightly to Calvinism, and so I try to listen, but so far I've found it lacking. It seems to present a God either (1) too weak to save everyone or (2) not loving enough to save everyone.

Calvinism, like believer's baptism, is something I hold pretty tightly, but I not willing to be arrogant about it. There's room for differing opinions in the church on these matters. It's one of those things where I say, "I think you're wrong."

There's plenty of other things where I'll openly say, "You're wrong." (e.g. Immaculate Conception, modalism, gay marriage, church dinners without casseroles)

 

[JettaKnight]

Just a bunch of auto.atons with no choice.

Your pithy post makes you the anit-Foszoe.

 

[foszoe]

If Calvinism is true then whether or not you accept it is irrelevant.

I'm really starting to accept Calvinism. The problem for me is what if I'm really not chosen.

 

[T.Lex]

If Calvinism is true then whether or not you accept it is irrelevant.

So is this kinda like the antithesis of Pascal's Wager: I can reject Calvinism because if it is correct, it won't matter for anyone, and if it is incorrect, it won't matter for me specifically.

 

[foszoe]

How can doubt be an indicator of election?

Then read J.D. Greear's short book "Stop Asking Jesus Into Your Heart".

The fact that you have a small doubt about it leads one to believe you are.

 

[historian]

How can doubt be an indicator of election?

Yeah. Doubt isn't a factor. I've been reading Piper (er...I mean Edwards, let's hear it for large block quotes!) and basically, I'm slowing coming around to thinking that the reason I don't have "it" is because I'm not chosen. It doesn't matter how much you want it or how much you worry about it. What matters is whether or not you have "it", and if you don't, sorry about your luck....

 

[T.Lex]

Yeah. Doubt isn't a factor. I've been reading Piper (er...I mean Edwards, let's hear it for large block quotes!) and basically, I'm slowing coming around to thinking that the reason I don't have "it" is because I'm not chosen. It doesn't matter how much you want it or how much you worry about it. What matters is whether or not you have "it", and if you don't, sorry about your luck....

Ok. In all seriousness, how can that be biblical?

"I am the way...."

"All things are possible...."

 

[foszoe]

I change your statement to

I can accept or reject Calvinism because
Nothing really matters, anyone can see
Nothing really matters
Nothing really matters to me
At least when it comes to my soteriology

So is this kinda like the antithesis of Pascal's Wager: I can reject Calvinism because if it is correct, it won't matter for anyone, and if it is incorrect, it won't matter for me specifically.

 

[JettaKnight]

How can doubt be an indicator of election?

I think so - to a point, that is. I can't say I've known any Christian that had some doubt at some point.


I'm worried about the guy living a sinful, worldly life and is assured about his salvation because he said the sinner's prayer in third grade.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

funny thing about religion threads... you can't really tell if people are arguing with each other like you can the politics threads.

 

[JettaKnight]

Ok. In all seriousness, how can that be biblical?

"I am the way...."

"All things are possible...."

Yeah, I'm not understanding it either. It smacks of Christian elitism.

Historian, are you saying that there's a whole bunch of people living out a Christian life (as close as humanly possible), who believe they have a personal relationship with Christ, who hold to a traditional core set of doctrines, etc., etc., yet aren't Christians?

What's the basis for this belief? Can you show some anecdotal Biblical character exhibiting this?

EDIT: Can you show a person that had a clear and sincere desire to follow Christ, yet was turned away?

 

[JettaKnight]

I change your statement to

I can accept or reject Calvinism because
Nothing really matters, anyone can see
Nothing really matters
Nothing really matters to me
At least when it comes to my soteriology

I'm with you on this. In practice, one's soteriology should not affect one's day to day walk with Christ, much.

The exception is Luther's early life. The man was constantly racked with guilt because he didn't understand what grace is.

 

[T.Lex]

funny thing about religion threads... you can't really tell if people are arguing with each other like you can the politics threads.

Heck, when it comes to some of this, I'm not sure either...

 

[T.Lex]

Yeah, I'm not understanding it either. It smacks of Christian elitism.

Historian, are you saying that there's a whole bunch of people living out a Christian life (as close as humanly possible), who believe they have a personal relationship with Christ, who hold to a traditional core set of doctrines, etc., etc., yet aren't Christians?

What's the basis for this belief? Can you show some anecdotal Biblical character exhibiting this?

That's not actually where I was going with it, but I'll follow your lead. I'm don't think I have anywhere near the understanding of this stuff that I need to in order to even formulate the right question.

 

[2A_Tom]

Yeah. Doubt isn't a factor. I've been reading Piper (er...I mean Edwards, let's hear it for large block quotes!) and basically, I'm slowing coming around to thinking that the reason I don't have "it" is because I'm not chosen. It doesn't matter how much you want it or how much you worry about it. What matters is whether or not you have "it", and if you don't, sorry about your luck....

Wow! You believe you are going to spend eternity in everlasting fire and that G-d wants you to go there just because he doesn't care to have you spend eternity with him and you are cool with that. Wow!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Some one accused me of using one liners (possibly taken out of context) to prove my points.

I am a Bible in it's entirety guy. I believe In Jesus Christ and his shed blood and my hope is that I can help others to realize that He loves them and wants them to spend eternity with Him.

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Peter counters them that say the L--d said he was coming back, but hasn't. The reason is he wants as many as wil to be saved.

2 Peter 3:9 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

question, pardon the interruption

Why self-censor "God" and "Lord"?

I thought that was only an "in vain" thing. Christianity doesn't have a "don't draw muhammad" thing, does it?

 

[foszoe]

It is considered biblical because it is based on elevating Romans above the rest of the Bible and interpreting all of scripture through that lens.

Ok. In all seriousness, how can that be biblical?

"I am the way...."

"All things are possible...."

 

[2A_Tom]

I think so - to a point, that is. I can't say I've known any Christian that had some doubt at some point.


I'm worried about the guy living a sinful, worldly life and is assured about his salvation because he said the sinner's prayer in third grade.

I am worried, if the person used a wordless book and said 1, 2, 3, repeat after me.

My middle daughter was 5 when I was reading the Christmas accounts from the Bible and explaining that Christ was born to die on the cross and shed his blood for sinners so they could go to Heaven. I explained that sinners that die in their sins go to hell for all eternity.

She stopped me and said "Daddy, that means that I would go to hell If I died." I took the next 30 minutes to an hour to explain the plan of salvation to her. She is now married to a good Christian man, has two children that they have in church.

The kids are still at the Jesus loves me stage, but I know their pastor and his family and I believe they are getting the teaching they need to lead them to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

 

[2A_Tom]

question, pardon the interruption

Why self-censor "God" and "Lord"?

I thought that was only an "in vain" thing. Christianity doesn't have a "don't draw muhammad" thing, does it?

I personally only do that in open fora. It is in deference to my Jewish brethren. They do not spell out terms attributed to deity or speak them aloud except in religious services.

If I were to PM you I would not do that.