CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[T.Lex]

My question is still, "what's the support and reasoning for praying to the saints who have left this earth?"

The reason has been well established and understood; it's the evidence to support the practice that's lacking.

So far, all I've read is:
1. There's very strong Biblical support for asking other Christians to pray for you in an intercessory manner.
2. All Christians are saints.
3. All the saints are part of the body - the church, even after death.

Well, really, it can end there. The last 2 are, to varying degrees, irrelevant to your question, then. Do you doubt the legitimacy of those 3 points?

 

[JettaKnight]

Well, really, it can end there. The last 2 are, to varying degrees, irrelevant to your question, then. Do you doubt the legitimacy of those 3 points?

I doubt how you can make the leap from, "verbally asking another living person to pray for you can continue in a completely different communication form." If this was the case then I'd expect to see some explicit, or even implicit, example.

 

[T.Lex]

I doubt how you can make the leap from, "verbally asking another living person to pray for you can continue in a completely different communication form." If this was the case then I'd expect to see some explicit, or even implicit, example.

Is that not changing the question, then? Or, rather, rejecting your 3rd point? Where is it written that prayers must be verbalized? Contrarily, are we not encouraged to keep our prayerfulness discrete?

Jesus prayed to God - arguably even a prayer of petition - in Gethsemane. That immediately comes to mind.

Matthew talks about having a small number of people pray on earth and it will be granted by God in heaven. If we accept that a person lives on in heaven, then the location isn't the important part.

I feel like there is another part of this that is an issue for you, but I can't sort out what it is.

 

[T.Lex]

@Jetta

Gotta run, but quick biblesearching revealed this. I Timothy 2:1-

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone

So, we at least have that categorization of what we today call "prayers." This goes back to foszoe's point about the limits of modern language.

 

[JettaKnight]

Is that not changing the question, then? Or, rather, rejecting your 3rd point? Where is it written that prayers must be verbalized? Contrarily, are we not encouraged to keep our prayerfulness discrete?

Jesus prayed to God - arguably even a prayer of petition - in Gethsemane. That immediately comes to mind.

Matthew talks about having a small number of people pray on earth and it will be granted by God in heaven. If we accept that a person lives on in heaven, then the location isn't the important part.

I feel like there is another part of this that is an issue for you, but I can't sort out what it is.

Are you using "verbalized" to mean, "spoken aloud"? Except in the context of, "pray without ceasing", yes, prayer is verbalized, in that you're using words in head.

The third point was, "All the saints are part of the body - the church, even after death." There's nothing in that statement to indicate that those saints hear your thoughts, your whispers, or eat you shouting. Even on earth, unless their in earshot, they don't either.


I'm just not sure how we're missing each other on this: Yes, Christians should pray for other Christians, Yes, Christians are still part of the Church after their time on earth ends, No, they cannot hear your prayers when they are in Heaven, and there's absolutely not even an inclining in Scripture to this being a possibility, in fact, communication with the dead is prohibited.


You ask other Christians hear on earth to pray for you because you can physically communicate with them, and they are going through the struggles of life just as you are. We Christians are to bear one another's burdens in this life. Afterwords, we can celebrate!





Furthermore, the concept that departed love ones are peering down from Heaven and smiling when you nail that big piano recital is a harmless warm & fuzzy notion at best, and at worst a heretical superstition. Not to mention it's down-right creep to think that pervy uncle Mort is sneaking a peek from behind a cloud while you do the horizontal lambada.

 

[JettaKnight]

The sarcastic answer is, "Why do we only ask the departed saints to pray?" Why can't they use their new found free time to organize the Lenten fish fry? Why can't they teach Sunday School or serve as a deacon? If you're charismatic, why can't they heal?*

[video=youtube;Occg29DsI7k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Occg29DsI7k[/video]


* Actually, there are charismatics that invoke the power of departed saints to heal - look up Bethel Church and their "grave sucking" practices.

 

[historian]

The sarcastic answer is, "Why do we only ask the departed saints to pray?" Why can't they use their new found free time to organize the Lenten fish fry? Why can't they teach Sunday School or serve as a deacon? If you're charismatic, why can't they heal?*

* Actually, there are charismatics that invoke the power of departed saints to heal - look up Bethel Church and their "grave sucking" practices.

On the plus side, the fish fry would finally be properly organized!

 

[T.Lex]

Are you using "verbalized" to mean, "spoken aloud"? Except in the context of, "pray without ceasing", yes, prayer is verbalized, in that you're using words in head.

Wait.

You brought up "verbal."

I guess we need clarification. When you say "verbalized," to me that means "articulated out loud." So the idea of "verbalized in your head" is odd.

The third point was, "All the saints are part of the body - the church, even after death." There's nothing in that statement to indicate that those saints hear your thoughts, your whispers, or eat you shouting. Even on earth, unless their in earshot, they don't either.

I believe this to be incorrect. I think I Corinthians 6 is instructive here.

[snippets]
Omitting the one about being judged by the saints...

[FONT=&quot]15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?[/FONT]

17 [FONT=&quot]But anyone united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.[/FONT]

No, they cannot hear your prayers when they are in Heaven, and there's absolutely not even an inclining in Scripture to this being a possibility, in fact, communication with the dead is prohibited.

Citation, please. Particularly in the NT with the revelation (small "r") that Jesus brought eternal life (or at least the opportunity for it).

 

[JettaKnight]

Wait.

You brought up "verbal."

I guess we need clarification. When you say "verbalized," to me that means "articulated out loud." So the idea of "verbalized in your head" is odd.

This is a big time pet peeve of mine, and I know I'm losing the battle on this one, but I will fight for this till I die.



No, that's "oral", i.e. spoken aloud. "Verbal" is communication using words in any form, even words that you think in your head and don't shove out your mouth. Writing is verbal communication. Semaphores? .... yeah, that's still verbal communication, too.


Remember: Verbal is the opposite of non-verbal. Our wives are always on us about our non-verbal communications; verbal is just everything else, which includes, but is not limited to, oral communication.


Both of those words had good and useful meanings and were never synonyms... Words are not fungible!

 

[T.Lex]

This is a big time pet peeve of mine, and I know I'm losing the battle on this one, but I will fight for this till I die.



No, that's "oral", i.e. spoken aloud. "Verbal" is communication using words in any form, even words that you think in your head and don't shove out your mouth. Writing is verbal communication. Semaphores? .... yeah, that's still verbal communication, too.


Remember: Verbal is the opposite of non-verbal. Our wives are always on us about our non-verbal communications; verbal is just everything else, which includes, but is not limited to, oral communication.


Both of those words had good and useful meanings and were never synonyms... Words are not fungible!

Dude, I totally get linguistic pet peeves. I have a few of my own that I specifically check with the pet peeve attendant before logging into INGO.

But, even so, I would still challenge your assertion that prayers (of any variety) need be verbalized at any level. God knows our hearts. Those one with God would, logically, then also know. Even if we can't verbalize/articulate it.

You keep coming back to the creepy angle, which is worldly. When (if?) uncle Mort (which, by the way is a GREAT name for a hypothetical dead guy) is united with God, there's nothing you can do that he (and He) isn't already aware of.

 

[JettaKnight]

Citation, please. Particularly in the NT with the revelation (small "r") that Jesus brought eternal life (or at least the opportunity for it).

Wait a minute, you're now asking me to, in essence, prove a negative? What else do you want me to prove that saints in Heaven can't do? You're question makes about as much sense to me as, "Can God make a rock so big that He can't lift it?"


As to I Corinthians 6, it's speaking to a sexual morality, that's way, way, way, far from what you're trying to make that passage mean.

 

[JettaKnight]

Dude, I totally get linguistic pet peeves. I have a few of my own that I specifically check with the pet peeve attendant before logging into INGO.

But, even so, I would still challenge your assertion that prayers (of any variety) need be verbalized at any level. God knows our hearts. Those one with God would, logically, then also know. Even if we can't verbalize/articulate it.

Sure, point made and we can agree. They're are prayers directly of the heart, and prayers where you say in your head, "Dear Lord, forgive me..."

You keep coming back to the creepy angle, which is worldly. When (if?) uncle Mort (which, by the way is a GREAT name for a hypothetical dead guy) is united with God, there's nothing you can do that he (and He) isn't already aware of.

Dude, I didn't even think about the name!


I dunno, God watching, yeah that's cool... Uncle Mort... that concept is so foreign to me that it's like eating grubs.

 

[T.Lex]

Wait a minute, you're now asking me to, in essence, prove a negative?

Well, that's what you've volunteered for.

I mean, your assertion is that there is no explicit nor implicit authority for the proposition that souls who've left earth can "hear" (maybe we can agree on a lexicon - "hear" as in "be aware of"?) our prayers. I've presented authority and logic that suggests it is not only plausible, but likely.

I am absolutely open to a scriptural retort that is more than "I don't think it works like that."



Here's another, your overly-narrow interpretation notwithstanding. Romans 6.

[FONT=&quot]5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 For whoever has died is freed from sin. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]8 But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.
[/FONT]
23 [FONT=&quot]For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.[/FONT]

Here's what this feels like it comes back to: you don't agree that souls that have passed on become united with God. It feels like you see heaven as a kind of astral place. (And, of course, I do apologize if I'm mischaracterizing what you believe - I'm just trying to understand it.) Souls disconnected from, but in the vicinity of, God.

To my reading, that is not accurate.

 

[JettaKnight]

I mean, your assertion is that there is no explicit nor implicit authority for the proposition that souls who've left earth can "hear" (maybe we can agree on a lexicon - "hear" as in "be aware of"?) our prayers. I've presented authority and logic that suggests it is not only plausible, but likely.

I'll concede on this point.

Here's what this feels like it comes back to: you don't agree that souls that have passed on become united with God. It feels like you see heaven as a kind of astral place. (And, of course, I do apologize if I'm mischaracterizing what you believe - I'm just trying to understand it.) Souls disconnected from, but in the vicinity of, God.

To my reading, that is not accurate.

Upon death, sanctification is complete, our sinful days are over, we are completely washed, therefore able to complete connect with God. However, we are still our own beings with our own character (although I hope I don't have to retain my horrible singing voice!). We are not imbued with the same powers as God; specifically in this case omniscience and omnipresence, nor do I think we "tap into" God's powers of to monitor the affairs of earth.



While I probably should actually do some work-work today, I will say that these conversations have illustrated the points of my theological gaping holes - there's a lot about the afterlife that I haven't formed a position or haven't a strong scriptural basis to back it up.

 

[T.Lex]

... I will say that these conversations have illustrated the points of my theological gaping holes - there's a lot about the afterlife that I haven't formed a position or haven't a strong scriptural basis to back it up.

Absolutely.

And, at least between us, I think there was a caveat in this or another thread that when dealing with afterlife issues, all of us are really ignorant.

But, I think that also then carries through to the Catholic intercession issue. If we don't know what afterlife is like, some (not you) should be less judgmental about how Catholics understand it. (Normal caveats from me apply that too many Catholics only have a loose understanding of our own beliefs and use even less precise language when talking about it.)

 

[historian]

Here's what this feels like it comes back to: you don't agree that souls that have passed on become united with God. It feels like you see heaven as a kind of astral place. (And, of course, I do apologize if I'm mischaracterizing what you believe - I'm just trying to understand it.) Souls disconnected from, but in the vicinity of, God.

To my reading, that is not accurate.

Wait (sadly I will be off for the rest of the night after I post this pot stirrer). But if they are united, in the way you are describing, doesn't that make them gods? I mean, you are only a couple of steps from there to funny undies and ruling your own planet. I think that being united with Christ means that we will have complete communion with God and no longer have to use Christ as the mediator since we will be perfected (except for maybe JK's singing voice).

 

[T.Lex]

Wait (sadly I will be off for the rest of the night after I post this pot stirrer). But if they are united, in the way you are describing, doesn't that make them gods? I mean, you are only a couple of steps from there to funny undies and ruling your own planet. I think that being united with Christ means that we will have complete communion with God and no longer have to use Christ as the mediator since we will be perfected (except for maybe JK's singing voice).

That's terrible pot-stirring.

You said what I said, with almost the exact same words.

 

[foszoe]

My question is still, "what's the support and reasoning for praying to the saints who have left this earth?"

The reason has been well established and understood; it's the evidence to support the practice that's lacking.

So far, all I've read is:
1. There's very strong Biblical support for asking other Christians to pray for you in an intercessory manner.
2. All Christians are saints.
3. All the saints are part of the body - the church, even after death.
4. (and here's where it comes off the rail) John sees an apocalyptic vision of twenty-four elders holding bowls of prayers/incense.
5. Angels in Heaven rejoice when someone comes to Christ.

Contemplating on Point 3.

What does it mean to be part of a body?
Is one part of the body completely unaware of the rest of the body?
When the toe is stubbed does the rest of the body react?
When the hand touches a hot surface does the hand alone suffer?
Who is the head of the Body?
What preserves unity in the Body of Christ?

I have known people here on earth who have prayed for another, knowing they were in need of prayer, without ever having been directly asked. Not heard the stories, but known people who felt the need to pray for another and later found out the need was legitimate. Often this is spoken of as God having laid a burden on their hearts for another. I have seen the tears in the eyes of those who have had their needs met by a total stranger who provided. These things I have witnessed occurring among my Protestant and Orthodox brothers and sisters here on earth. I believe the Holy Spirit indwells each believer and prays within with unutterable groanings. I believe that Christ is the head of the body and the Holy Spirit is an active participant in all believers knitting them into one body and that body is not only capable of knowing the problems in each member but that it does exactly that, not just through the spoken word for that is not how a body works. I believe the saints pray for me regardless of whether or not I ask them, and I will not look at one part of the body and say I have no need of you. Each part of the body has need of all other parts of the body. I don't believe I HAVE to ask any saint at any time to pray for me, but I love the saints as I love any Christian here on earth whom I have never seen and pray for daily.

 

[foszoe]

Wait (sadly I will be off for the rest of the night after I post this pot stirrer). But if they are united, in the way you are describing, doesn't that make them gods? I mean, you are only a couple of steps from there to funny undies and ruling your own planet. I think that being united with Christ means that we will have complete communion with God and no longer have to use Christ as the mediator since we will be perfected (except for maybe JK's singing voice).

Are they gods? What does the Bible say?

 

[T.Lex]

I have known people here on earth who have prayed for another, knowing they were in need of prayer, without ever having been directly asked. Not heard the stories, but known people who felt the need to pray for another and later found out the need was legitimate. Often this is spoken of as God having laid a burden on their hearts for another. I have seen the tears in the eyes of those who have had their needs met by a total stranger who provided. These things I have witnessed occurring among my Protestant and Orthodox brothers and sisters here on earth. I believe the Holy Spirit indwells each believer and prays within with unutterable groanings. I believe that Christ is the head of the body and the Holy Spirit is an active participant in all believers knitting them into one body and that body is not only capable of knowing the problems in each member but that it does exactly that, not just through the spoken word for that is not how a body works. I believe the saints pray for me regardless of whether or not I ask them, and I will not look at one part of the body and say I have no need of you. Each part of the body has need of all other parts of the body. I don't believe I HAVE to ask any saint at any time to pray for me, but I love the saints as I love any Christian here on earth whom I have never seen and pray for daily.

That's a beautiful post right there.