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CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity
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This one is really a one word answer. The Incarnation. Well ok that's two
Expanding a little...The Orthodox position is that to deny the use of images is to deny the Incarnation. Denying images is often linked to dualism.
John of Damascus "On the Divine Images" is the classic treatise on the matter. I will see if I can find some quotes...
John of Damascus
“I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honoring that matter which works for my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God.”
Visitors to an Orthodox Church are confronted with many unfamiliar elements of worship: for example, the use of incense and Byzantine chant and the custom of standing throughout the service. But perhaps the most perplexing element is the icons, especially when Orthodox worshipers bow before and kiss them. Isn’t this idolatry?
This very question raged through the Christian world in the eighth and ninth centuries, and it occupied the attention of two of the seven ecumenical (worldwide) church councils. The strongest defense of the practice came from a Christian living in the heart of the Islamic empire, John of Damascus.
Emperor Leo III, in 726, outlawed the veneration of icons. In 730 Leo commanded the destruction of all religious likenesses, whether icons, mosaics, or statues, and iconoclasts (“image smashers” in Greek) went on a spree, demolishing nearly all icons in the Empire.
From his distant post in the Holy Land, John challenged this policy in three works. He argued that icons should not be worshiped, but they could be venerated. (The distinction is crucial: a Western parallel might be the way a favorite Bible is read, cherished, and treated with honor—but certainly not worshiped.)
John explained it like this: “Often, doubtless, when we have not the Lord’s passion in mind and see the image of Christ’s crucifixion, his saving passion is brought back to remembrance, and we fall down and worship not the material but that which is imaged: just as we do not worship the material of which the Gospels are made, nor the material of the Cross, but that which these typify.”
Second, John drew support from the writings of the early fathers like Basil the Great, who wrote, “The honor paid to an icon is transferred to its prototype.” That is, the actual icon was but a point of departure for the expressed devotion; the recipient was in the unseen world.
Third, John claimed that, with the birth of the Son of God in the flesh, the depiction of Christ in paint and wood demonstrated faith in the Incarnation. Since the unseen God had become visible, there was no blasphemy in painting visible representations of Jesus or other historical figures. To paint an icon of him was, in fact, a profession of faith, deniable only by a heretic!
Foszoe's notes: The entire 3 item work cited above can be read in less than an hour.
“I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honoring that matter which works for my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God.”
Visitors to an Orthodox Church are confronted with many unfamiliar elements of worship: for example, the use of incense and Byzantine chant and the custom of standing throughout the service. But perhaps the most perplexing element is the icons, especially when Orthodox worshipers bow before and kiss them. Isn’t this idolatry?
This very question raged through the Christian world in the eighth and ninth centuries, and it occupied the attention of two of the seven ecumenical (worldwide) church councils. The strongest defense of the practice came from a Christian living in the heart of the Islamic empire, John of Damascus.
Emperor Leo III, in 726, outlawed the veneration of icons. In 730 Leo commanded the destruction of all religious likenesses, whether icons, mosaics, or statues, and iconoclasts (“image smashers” in Greek) went on a spree, demolishing nearly all icons in the Empire.
From his distant post in the Holy Land, John challenged this policy in three works. He argued that icons should not be worshiped, but they could be venerated. (The distinction is crucial: a Western parallel might be the way a favorite Bible is read, cherished, and treated with honor—but certainly not worshiped.)
John explained it like this: “Often, doubtless, when we have not the Lord’s passion in mind and see the image of Christ’s crucifixion, his saving passion is brought back to remembrance, and we fall down and worship not the material but that which is imaged: just as we do not worship the material of which the Gospels are made, nor the material of the Cross, but that which these typify.”
Second, John drew support from the writings of the early fathers like Basil the Great, who wrote, “The honor paid to an icon is transferred to its prototype.” That is, the actual icon was but a point of departure for the expressed devotion; the recipient was in the unseen world.
Third, John claimed that, with the birth of the Son of God in the flesh, the depiction of Christ in paint and wood demonstrated faith in the Incarnation. Since the unseen God had become visible, there was no blasphemy in painting visible representations of Jesus or other historical figures. To paint an icon of him was, in fact, a profession of faith, deniable only by a heretic!
Foszoe's notes: The entire 3 item work cited above can be read in less than an hour.
This one is really a one word answer. The Incarnation. Well ok that's two
The Orthodox position is that to deny the use of images is to deny the Incarnation. Denying images is often linked to dualism.
John of Damascus "On the Divine Images" is the classic treatise on the matter. I will see if I can find some quotes...
That makes sense - there's a lot of history related to early church cults and how to combat them, right?
I think this is my big problem. Veneration of anything other than God is, if not idolatry, close to idolatry.
Not really. I think I am an exception. I always hated family photos. My philosophy has always been if you can't remember it, it wasn't worth remembering.
Same with my Bible. I can always find another one. (I would be mad about you destroying my property, but that is a legal matter, not a sentimental one!)
It really isn't "opposite." Of course, you would expect me to say that.
Our culture has statuary all over, yet does not worship it in a god-idol sense. (I will concede that the statue of Peyton Manning may blur the line for some people.)
Like secular statuary, a figure of Mary is intended to remind us of many things - perhaps mostly, though, her devout supplication to our Lord.
At the risk of turning up the heat on the conversation, I feel compelled to make this a bit personal: why do you assume the worst use of the "Catholic" images rather than even a middle-of-the-road laziness or best-case use?
Even if it is close, it is still not the same.
Its spelled completely differently.
To the extent there is a danger in such things, why is that a problem? We do dangerous things all day (sometimes even with dangerous tools). Temptation surrounds us. Being AWARE of the temptation to focus on idols is part of the lesson in using icons. We remind ourselves that Mary is not God. She has a special relationship with God. But the goal for us is to become as close to God as possible.
I knew an Orthodox priest who forbade photographers at weddings in the Church. Telling the bride and groom that the place for those images were in their memories.
Didn't care for the distraction of a photographer.
Didn't care for the distraction of a photographer.
Not really. I think I am an exception. I always hated family photos. My philosophy has always been if you can't remember it, it wasn't worth remembering.
Same with my Bible. I can always find another one. (I would be mad about you destroying my property, but that is a legal matter, not a sentimental one!)
I think it is both the historical problem as well as the problem that is frequently seen outside of the US. To be general for a while, I still remember going to the basilica in Mexico City when I was about 7, the statues of the saints, the people earnestly petitioning the saints for (insert problem that saint is saint of). Outside of mainstream Western society (2nd and 3rd world countries), people treat the saints as if they were gods. This is more of the background we come from. Thus, we see the problem not with the images, but rather what the images are used for in the bulk of society (rightly or wrongly, I can make the argument that those folks in Mexico really don't know their faith well and are doing things the wrong way, but it isn't being corrected either). Additionally, asking a Saint to help with (whatever the saint helps with) seems to be taking the glory away from a jealous God and transferring it to Saint Whomever. "Saint Whomever helped John get As this Term!" rather than, "God helped John get As this term."
As for the historical problem, we're protestants man!
Our wedding photos only remind me that I once was lighter and had transition lenses in my glasses!
Ha!I think it is both the historical problem as well as the problem that is frequently seen outside of the US. To be general for a while, I still remember going to the basilica in Mexico City when I was about 7, the statues of the saints, the people earnestly petitioning the saints for (insert problem that saint is saint of). Outside of mainstream Western society (2nd and 3rd world countries), people treat the saints as if they were gods. This is more of the background we come from. Thus, we see the problem not with the images, but rather what the images are used for in the bulk of society (rightly or wrongly, I can make the argument that those folks in Mexico really don't know their faith well and are doing things the wrong way, but it isn't being corrected either). Additionally, asking a Saint to help with (whatever the saint helps with) seems to be taking the glory away from a jealous God and transferring it to Saint Whomever. "Saint Whomever helped John get As this Term!" rather than, "God helped John get As this term."
As for the historical problem, we're protestants man!
Yeah, I'm not up for the historical argument. I mean, I could see how it could influence how certain non-Catholics portray Catholics, but I'm more interested in the other part of the sentiment.
I think the view of what the people are doing with those saint statues that you describe is too superficial. Praying to a saint to help with a problem isn't idolatry in the Catholic context. It is at least implicit (and often explicit) that the prayer is intercessory. The power of the Trinity is the ultimate destination for the prayer.
And, with this next comment, the conversation may become too heated, but I will make the effort to explain it in a non-controversial way. The saints become saints by acting as conduits for God's miracles on earth. (The ancient, pre-congregational saints are excluded - no offense intended foszoe.) It isn't logical for God the Trinity to actually act upon the intercession of a saint, but then demand us to not ask for such intercession. The fact that such intercessory prayers are actually effective is proof that God intends it to be this way. He doesn't require intercessory prayers, of course. But, neither does he forbid them.
Idolatry is forbidden. Intercession is, apparently, not.
St John
A longer excerpt...
Always aware of my own unworthiness, I would have kept silent and merely confessed my shortcomings to God, but all things are good at the right time. I see the Church which God founded on the Apostles and Prophets with the cornerstone of Christ his Son, tossed on an angry sea, beaten by rushing waves, and shaken by the assaults of evil spirits. I see rips in the seamless robe of Christ which wicked men have tried to pull apart, and His body cut into pieces (i.e. the word of God and the ancient tradition of the Church). Because of this I have decided it is wrong to hold my tongue, remembering the warning in the Bible: “If you see the sword coming and do not warn your brother, I will hold you guilty of his blood.” [Ez. 33.8] Fear compelled me to speak. The truth was stronger than the majesty of kings.
Now, our opponents say, “God commanded Moses the law-giver, 'You will worship the Lord your God, and only him, and not make an image for yourself of anything in heaven above, or on the earth below.' “ [Ex. 20:3-4] But they are wrong, and do not know the Scriptures. The letter kills while the spirit gives life, [2 Cor. 3:6] and they fail to find the spiritual meaning hidden in the letter. I say to these people, the Lord who taught you this would teach you more. Listen to the law-giver’s interpretation of this law in Deuteronomy: “This is to stop you looking up to the heavens and, seeing the sun, moon and stars, being deceived by error and worshipping and serving them.” [Deut. 4.19] The whole point of this is that we should not adore a created thing more than the Creator, nor give true worship to anything but him. But worship of false gods is not the same as venerating holy images.
Again, God says, “You shall not have any gods other than me. You shall not make yourself a graven image, or any likeness. You shall not adore them or serve them, for I am the Lord thy God.” [Deut. 5.7-9] You see that he forbids image—making to avoid idolatry, and because it is impossible to make an image of the immeasurable, invisible God. As St Paul said at the Areopagus, “As we are the offspring of God, we must not imagine God to be like gold, silver, stone, or anything created by humans.” [Acts 17.29] But these instructions were given to the Jews because they were prone to idolatry. We, on the other hand, are no longer tied to apron strings. We have outgrown superstitious error, and know God in truth, worshipping him alone, enjoying the fullness of his knowledge. We are no longer children but adults. We receive our habit of mind from God, and know what may be depicted and what may not. The Scripture says, “You have not seen his face.” [Ex. 33.20] How wise the Law is! How could one depict the invisible? How picture the inconceivable? How could one express to the limitless, the immeasurable, the invisible? How give infinity a shape? How paint immortality? How put mystery in one place?
But when you think of God, who is a pure spirit, becoming man for your sake, then you can clothe him in a human form. When the invisible becomes visible to the eye, you may then draw his form. When he who is a pure spirit, immeasurable in the boundlessness of his own nature, existing as God, takes on the form of a servant and a body of flesh, then you may draw his likeness, and show it to anyone who is willing to contemplate it. Depict his coming down, his virgin birth, his baptism in the Jordan, his transfiguration on Mt Tabor, his all-powerful sufferings, his death and miracles, the proofs of his deity, the deeds he performed in the flesh through divine power, his saving Cross, his grave, his resurrection and his ascent into heaven. Give to it all the endurance of engraving and color. Have no fear or anxiety; not all veneration is the same. Abraham venerated the sons of Emmor, impious men who were ignorant of God, when he bought the double cave for a tomb. [Gen. 23.7] Jacob venerated his brother Esau and the Egyptian Pharaoh. [Gen 33.3] He venerated, but he did not worship in the full sense. Joshua and Daniel venerated an angel of God [Jos. 5.14, Dan. 8:16-17] they did not worship in the full sense.
Worship is one thing, veneration another. The invisible things of God have been made visible through images since the creation of the world. We see images in creation which remind us faintly of God, e.g. in order to talk about the holy and worshipful Trinity, we use the images of the sun and rays of light, a spring and a full river, the mind and speech and the spirit within us, or a rose tree, a sprouting flower, and a sweet fragrance. Also events in the future can be foreshadowed mystically by images. For instance, the ark represents the image of Our Lady, the Mother of God. So does the staff and the earthen jar. The bronze serpent shows us the one who defeated the bite of the original serpent on the Cross; [Jn 3:14-15] the sea, water and the cloud depict the grace of baptism. [I Cor. 10.1] ...
You must understand that there are different degrees of worship. First of all the full worship which we show to God, who alone is by nature worthy of worship. But, for the sake of God who is worshipful by nature, we honor and venerate his saints and servants. It is in this sense that Joshua and Daniel worshipped an angel, [Jos. 5.14, Dan. 8:16-17] and David worshipped the Lord’s holy places, when be said, “Let us go to the place where his feet have stood.” [Ps. 132.7] Similarly, his dwelling place is worshipped, as when all the people of Israel adored in the tabernacle, and they stood round the temple in Jerusalem gazing at it from all sides worshipping, as they still do. Similarly, we honor the rulers established by God, as when Jacob gave homage to Esau, his elder brother, [Gen. 33.3] and to Pharaoh, the divinely established ruler. [Gen. 47.7] And Joseph was worshipped by his brothers. [Gen. 50.18] That kind of veneration is based on honour, as in the case of Abraham and the sons of Emmor. [Gen. 23.7] So then, either do away with all worship, or accept it in all its different kinds. Answer me this question: “Is there only one God?"
"Yes,” you answer, “there is only one Law-giver."
So why would his commands contradict each other? The cherubim, for example, are mere creatures. Why, then, does he allow cherubim, carved by human hand, to overshadow the mercy—seat in the temple? Obviously it is impossible to make an image of God because is infinite and changeless, or of someone like God because creation should not be worshipped as God. But he allowed the people to make an image of the cherubim who are finite and who lie in adoration before his throne, overshadowing the mercy-seat. It was fitting that the image of the heavenly choirs should overshadow the divine mysteries. Would you say that the ark of the covenant and staff and mercy-seat were not made by human hands? Do they not consist of what you call contemptible matter? What was the tabernacle itself? Was it not an image? Did it not depict a reality beyond itself? This is why the holy Apostle says that the rituals of the law, “serve as an example and shadow of heavenly things.” [Heb. 8.5] Moses, when he came to finish the tabernacle, was told “make sure that you make everything according to the pattern that you were shown on the Mountain.” [Ex. 25.40] The law was not an image itself, but it shrouded the image. In the words of the same Apostle, “the law contains the shadow of the goods to come, not the image of those things.” [Heb. 10.1]
So, since the law is a forerunner of images, how can we say that it forbids images? Should the law ban us from making images, when the tabernacle itself was a depiction, a foreshadowing? No. There is a time for everything. [Eccl. 3.1] In the old days, the incorporeal and infinite God was never depicted. Now, however, when God has been seen clothed in flesh, and talking with mortals, [Baruch 3.37] I make an image of the God whom I see. I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake, and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honoring that matter which works my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God. How could God be born out of lifeless things? And if God’s body is God by its union with him, it is changeless. The nature of God remains the same as before, the flesh created in time is brought to life by a logical and reasoning soul.
I honor all matter, and venerate it. Through it, filled, as it were, with a divine power and grace, my salvation has come to me. Was the three-times happy and blessed wood of the Cross not matter? Was the sacred and holy mountain of Calvary not matter? What of the life-giving rock, the Holy Tomb, the source of our resurrection — was it not matter? Is the holy book of the Gospels not matter? Is the blessed table which gives us the Bread of Life not matter? Are the gold and silver, out of which crosses and altar-plate and chalices are made not matter? And before all these things, is not the body and blood of our Lord matter? Either stop venerating all these things, or submit to the tradition of the Church in the venerating of images, honoring God and his friends, and following in this the grace of the Holy Spirit. Do not despise matter, for it is not despicable. Nothing that God has made is. Only that which does not come from God is despicable — our own invention, the spontaneous decision to disregard the law of human nature, i.e., sin.
If you dishonor and reject images because they are produced by matter, consider what the Scripture says: “The Lord said to Moses, 'I have called Bezelel of Judah, and filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, understanding and knowledge of many crafts, to make artifacts from gold, silver, brass, marble, precious stones, and various kinds wood.'” [Ex. 31.1-5] This is the glorification of matter, which you call inglorious. How then, can you make the law a pretence for giving up what it orders? If you invoke the law it against images, you should keep the Sabbath, and practice circumcision. “If you observe the law, Christ will not profit you. You who are justified in the law are fallen from grace.” [Gal. 5.2-4] Israel of old did not see God, but we see the Lord’s glory face to face. [2 Cor. 3.18] God ordered twelve stones to be taken out of the River Jordan, and explained why. “When your son asks you the meaning of these stones, tell him how the water left the Jordan by God’s command, and how the ark of the covenant was saved along with all the people.” [Jos. 4.21-22] So how can we not record in images the saving pains and miracles of Christ our Lord, so that when my child asks me, “What is this?” I may say, “That God the Word became man, and that for His sake not Israel alone passed through the Jordan, but the whole human race regained their original happiness. Through him human nature rose from the lowest depths of the earth higher than the skies, and in his Person sat down on the throne his Father had prepared for him."
Foszoe's notes: This is just to give you a flavor. I think its enough.
A longer excerpt...
Always aware of my own unworthiness, I would have kept silent and merely confessed my shortcomings to God, but all things are good at the right time. I see the Church which God founded on the Apostles and Prophets with the cornerstone of Christ his Son, tossed on an angry sea, beaten by rushing waves, and shaken by the assaults of evil spirits. I see rips in the seamless robe of Christ which wicked men have tried to pull apart, and His body cut into pieces (i.e. the word of God and the ancient tradition of the Church). Because of this I have decided it is wrong to hold my tongue, remembering the warning in the Bible: “If you see the sword coming and do not warn your brother, I will hold you guilty of his blood.” [Ez. 33.8] Fear compelled me to speak. The truth was stronger than the majesty of kings.
Now, our opponents say, “God commanded Moses the law-giver, 'You will worship the Lord your God, and only him, and not make an image for yourself of anything in heaven above, or on the earth below.' “ [Ex. 20:3-4] But they are wrong, and do not know the Scriptures. The letter kills while the spirit gives life, [2 Cor. 3:6] and they fail to find the spiritual meaning hidden in the letter. I say to these people, the Lord who taught you this would teach you more. Listen to the law-giver’s interpretation of this law in Deuteronomy: “This is to stop you looking up to the heavens and, seeing the sun, moon and stars, being deceived by error and worshipping and serving them.” [Deut. 4.19] The whole point of this is that we should not adore a created thing more than the Creator, nor give true worship to anything but him. But worship of false gods is not the same as venerating holy images.
Again, God says, “You shall not have any gods other than me. You shall not make yourself a graven image, or any likeness. You shall not adore them or serve them, for I am the Lord thy God.” [Deut. 5.7-9] You see that he forbids image—making to avoid idolatry, and because it is impossible to make an image of the immeasurable, invisible God. As St Paul said at the Areopagus, “As we are the offspring of God, we must not imagine God to be like gold, silver, stone, or anything created by humans.” [Acts 17.29] But these instructions were given to the Jews because they were prone to idolatry. We, on the other hand, are no longer tied to apron strings. We have outgrown superstitious error, and know God in truth, worshipping him alone, enjoying the fullness of his knowledge. We are no longer children but adults. We receive our habit of mind from God, and know what may be depicted and what may not. The Scripture says, “You have not seen his face.” [Ex. 33.20] How wise the Law is! How could one depict the invisible? How picture the inconceivable? How could one express to the limitless, the immeasurable, the invisible? How give infinity a shape? How paint immortality? How put mystery in one place?
But when you think of God, who is a pure spirit, becoming man for your sake, then you can clothe him in a human form. When the invisible becomes visible to the eye, you may then draw his form. When he who is a pure spirit, immeasurable in the boundlessness of his own nature, existing as God, takes on the form of a servant and a body of flesh, then you may draw his likeness, and show it to anyone who is willing to contemplate it. Depict his coming down, his virgin birth, his baptism in the Jordan, his transfiguration on Mt Tabor, his all-powerful sufferings, his death and miracles, the proofs of his deity, the deeds he performed in the flesh through divine power, his saving Cross, his grave, his resurrection and his ascent into heaven. Give to it all the endurance of engraving and color. Have no fear or anxiety; not all veneration is the same. Abraham venerated the sons of Emmor, impious men who were ignorant of God, when he bought the double cave for a tomb. [Gen. 23.7] Jacob venerated his brother Esau and the Egyptian Pharaoh. [Gen 33.3] He venerated, but he did not worship in the full sense. Joshua and Daniel venerated an angel of God [Jos. 5.14, Dan. 8:16-17] they did not worship in the full sense.
Worship is one thing, veneration another. The invisible things of God have been made visible through images since the creation of the world. We see images in creation which remind us faintly of God, e.g. in order to talk about the holy and worshipful Trinity, we use the images of the sun and rays of light, a spring and a full river, the mind and speech and the spirit within us, or a rose tree, a sprouting flower, and a sweet fragrance. Also events in the future can be foreshadowed mystically by images. For instance, the ark represents the image of Our Lady, the Mother of God. So does the staff and the earthen jar. The bronze serpent shows us the one who defeated the bite of the original serpent on the Cross; [Jn 3:14-15] the sea, water and the cloud depict the grace of baptism. [I Cor. 10.1] ...
You must understand that there are different degrees of worship. First of all the full worship which we show to God, who alone is by nature worthy of worship. But, for the sake of God who is worshipful by nature, we honor and venerate his saints and servants. It is in this sense that Joshua and Daniel worshipped an angel, [Jos. 5.14, Dan. 8:16-17] and David worshipped the Lord’s holy places, when be said, “Let us go to the place where his feet have stood.” [Ps. 132.7] Similarly, his dwelling place is worshipped, as when all the people of Israel adored in the tabernacle, and they stood round the temple in Jerusalem gazing at it from all sides worshipping, as they still do. Similarly, we honor the rulers established by God, as when Jacob gave homage to Esau, his elder brother, [Gen. 33.3] and to Pharaoh, the divinely established ruler. [Gen. 47.7] And Joseph was worshipped by his brothers. [Gen. 50.18] That kind of veneration is based on honour, as in the case of Abraham and the sons of Emmor. [Gen. 23.7] So then, either do away with all worship, or accept it in all its different kinds. Answer me this question: “Is there only one God?"
"Yes,” you answer, “there is only one Law-giver."
So why would his commands contradict each other? The cherubim, for example, are mere creatures. Why, then, does he allow cherubim, carved by human hand, to overshadow the mercy—seat in the temple? Obviously it is impossible to make an image of God because is infinite and changeless, or of someone like God because creation should not be worshipped as God. But he allowed the people to make an image of the cherubim who are finite and who lie in adoration before his throne, overshadowing the mercy-seat. It was fitting that the image of the heavenly choirs should overshadow the divine mysteries. Would you say that the ark of the covenant and staff and mercy-seat were not made by human hands? Do they not consist of what you call contemptible matter? What was the tabernacle itself? Was it not an image? Did it not depict a reality beyond itself? This is why the holy Apostle says that the rituals of the law, “serve as an example and shadow of heavenly things.” [Heb. 8.5] Moses, when he came to finish the tabernacle, was told “make sure that you make everything according to the pattern that you were shown on the Mountain.” [Ex. 25.40] The law was not an image itself, but it shrouded the image. In the words of the same Apostle, “the law contains the shadow of the goods to come, not the image of those things.” [Heb. 10.1]
So, since the law is a forerunner of images, how can we say that it forbids images? Should the law ban us from making images, when the tabernacle itself was a depiction, a foreshadowing? No. There is a time for everything. [Eccl. 3.1] In the old days, the incorporeal and infinite God was never depicted. Now, however, when God has been seen clothed in flesh, and talking with mortals, [Baruch 3.37] I make an image of the God whom I see. I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake, and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honoring that matter which works my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God. How could God be born out of lifeless things? And if God’s body is God by its union with him, it is changeless. The nature of God remains the same as before, the flesh created in time is brought to life by a logical and reasoning soul.
I honor all matter, and venerate it. Through it, filled, as it were, with a divine power and grace, my salvation has come to me. Was the three-times happy and blessed wood of the Cross not matter? Was the sacred and holy mountain of Calvary not matter? What of the life-giving rock, the Holy Tomb, the source of our resurrection — was it not matter? Is the holy book of the Gospels not matter? Is the blessed table which gives us the Bread of Life not matter? Are the gold and silver, out of which crosses and altar-plate and chalices are made not matter? And before all these things, is not the body and blood of our Lord matter? Either stop venerating all these things, or submit to the tradition of the Church in the venerating of images, honoring God and his friends, and following in this the grace of the Holy Spirit. Do not despise matter, for it is not despicable. Nothing that God has made is. Only that which does not come from God is despicable — our own invention, the spontaneous decision to disregard the law of human nature, i.e., sin.
If you dishonor and reject images because they are produced by matter, consider what the Scripture says: “The Lord said to Moses, 'I have called Bezelel of Judah, and filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, understanding and knowledge of many crafts, to make artifacts from gold, silver, brass, marble, precious stones, and various kinds wood.'” [Ex. 31.1-5] This is the glorification of matter, which you call inglorious. How then, can you make the law a pretence for giving up what it orders? If you invoke the law it against images, you should keep the Sabbath, and practice circumcision. “If you observe the law, Christ will not profit you. You who are justified in the law are fallen from grace.” [Gal. 5.2-4] Israel of old did not see God, but we see the Lord’s glory face to face. [2 Cor. 3.18] God ordered twelve stones to be taken out of the River Jordan, and explained why. “When your son asks you the meaning of these stones, tell him how the water left the Jordan by God’s command, and how the ark of the covenant was saved along with all the people.” [Jos. 4.21-22] So how can we not record in images the saving pains and miracles of Christ our Lord, so that when my child asks me, “What is this?” I may say, “That God the Word became man, and that for His sake not Israel alone passed through the Jordan, but the whole human race regained their original happiness. Through him human nature rose from the lowest depths of the earth higher than the skies, and in his Person sat down on the throne his Father had prepared for him."
Foszoe's notes: This is just to give you a flavor. I think its enough.
Apropos to the recent topic, my daily Bible passage happened to be James 5:16 today.
The second sentence, "The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective."
Doesn't say anything about being alive in the earthly sense being a requirement.
The second sentence, "The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective."
Doesn't say anything about being alive in the earthly sense being a requirement.
Going Rogue?
MONDAY, JANUARY 22, 2018 | ORDINARY TIME
MONDAY OF THE THIRD WEEK IN ORDINARY TIME
YEAR 2 | ROMAN MISSAL | LECTIONARY
On the same date: Day of Prayer for the Legal Protection of Unborn Children; Saint Vincent, Deacon and Martyr
First Reading 2 Samuel 5:1–7, 10
Response Psalm 89:25a
Psalm Psalm 89:20–22, 25–26
Gospel Acclamation 2 Timothy 1:10
Gospel Mark 3:22–30
Catholic Daily Readings. (2009). Bellingham, WA: Faithlife.
MONDAY, JANUARY 22, 2018 | ORDINARY TIME
MONDAY OF THE THIRD WEEK IN ORDINARY TIME
YEAR 2 | ROMAN MISSAL | LECTIONARY
On the same date: Day of Prayer for the Legal Protection of Unborn Children; Saint Vincent, Deacon and Martyr
First Reading 2 Samuel 5:1–7, 10
Response Psalm 89:25a
Psalm Psalm 89:20–22, 25–26
Gospel Acclamation 2 Timothy 1:10
Gospel Mark 3:22–30
Catholic Daily Readings. (2009). Bellingham, WA: Faithlife.
Apropos to the recent topic, my daily Bible passage happened to be James 5:16 today.
The second sentence, "The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective."
Doesn't say anything about being alive in the earthly sense being a requirement.
hahaha
Yeah, this may not come through on INGO, but I'm kinda a troublemaker with an authority figure problem.
You know the old thing about opening up the Bible to a random page as a kind of openness to whatever God has in mind? The cool thing about technology is that it can do the digital equivalent REALLY easily.
ETA:
That passage from Timothy is germane, though, too.
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indiucky
Grandmaster
Very....Felt all the way to the core......She laid out the course he needs to take...Witnessing to your abuser while acting as a witness in a court....Very powerful...Thanks for sharing Hough.....A similar story is told here....
Tim Farmer was host for Kentucky Afield for a number of yours and now hosts Tim Farmer's Country Kitchen....His cousin and I have been friends for 30 years....A similar story of forgiveness that took place back in the 1980's in Louisville played out in court...It was a big deal at the time and I had no idea the Santa at Bass Pro was that man....I may have posted this before but I don't know if you saw it or not...
[video=youtube;LP7YjrevKQw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP7YjrevKQw[/video]
My daughter's on the Autism Spectrum and I remember being worried that she would have an episode due to the crowd at BPS when we took her to get her photo.....She didn't...He recognized my daughter was "Different but not LESS" to quote Temple Grandin and took her up on his lap and showered her with attention much to her joy...Watching this he says God gave him a special gift with special needs kids and I witnessed it....
Now my shop is dusty.....
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Soul crushing guilt. When you finally come to terms and realize how evil you are, it is soul crushing. That's the beauty of grace. I admire people like this. I'd like to think I could do this too if I were in a similar situation. I don't know but I hope I would.
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