That was great.
Well now I'm going to have to watch some violence and hate-filled videos so I can get back in the mood to practice law this afternoon.
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CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity
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That was great.
Well now I'm going to have to watch some violence and hate-filled videos so I can get back in the mood to practice law this afternoon.
I was digging around on the 'ole intertoobs and found this:
The Pursuit Of Happiness
It's some big church in Miami. The pastor's preaching on John 15.
He reads only the "important" verses, 1, 5 & 11. and comes to this conclusion:
The closing is this:
Actually, more infuriating is how Christianity Today interviews the pastor about Biblical Preaching!
The Pursuit Of Happiness
It's some big church in Miami. The pastor's preaching on John 15.
He reads only the "important" verses, 1, 5 & 11. and comes to this conclusion:
The closing is this:
I can't think of a worse way to preach on that passage. This is the stereotypical false preacher leading his flock to death.
Actually, more infuriating is how Christianity Today interviews the pastor about Biblical Preaching!
Not to belabor the point, but here's something from that same church:
[video=youtube;BJdsiMFlQzs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJdsiMFlQzs[/video]
Note that Miamians can't tell the difference from a grain silo and nuclear reactor.
[video=youtube;BJdsiMFlQzs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJdsiMFlQzs[/video]
Note that Miamians can't tell the difference from a grain silo and nuclear reactor.
OK, one week later....
from the catholic.com article I learned a lot. But, in the end it came down to, "Here's a lot of good arguments from Protestants, but because of how we interpret Rev 5:8*, praying to the dead saints is a good thing. Furthermore, we don't venerate the Saints because we have dogma that says that's not cool."
This, of course, denies reality as seen in Latin America (and even Europe)
From the NPR report:
That right there sounds like veneration, aka ascribing the ability to perform miracles to (deceased) humans.
Looking at the other one (scripturecatholic.com), it's particularly disturbing to see that Luke 15:7-10 is used to justify the practice - there's no mention of anyone but angels.
Using John 15 as an argument is indeed suspect....
...still reading, but there's a lot of passages listed but none really address the issue. The gist seems to be, "Christians that die and go to Heaven are still part of the Church, therefore they act in a similar way, i.e. if they prayed for you on earth, then they must still pray for you in Heaven, but now since they're closer to Jesus, their intercessions carry more weight."
Maybe this stems from, "What's the purpose of prayer?" Do we pray to convince God that Poroit the Parakeet must live or does prayer have a different purpose?
* And Foszoe accuses me of eisegesis!
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Not to be nitpicky but it will seem so, but if that quote above is an actual quote, it's heretical. Catholics do venerate saints and their dogma supports the practice. It is worship that is "not cool".
I think it would be a good exercise to know what is the first thing that comes to T Lex and JK's mind when they hear the word prayer? Then how would they define it? How does the Catholic Church define prayer? How do Reformed Christians define it?
Prayer is a word like marriage that has changed over time. Ever hear the term "I pray thee?" What did it mean?
And the bigger question would be, do Catholics or Protestants owe it to the world the change their dogma/doctrine to reflect the changes in word meaning over time? IE marriage? Prayer? Veneration? Adoration? Worship?
Catholics are eisegetical in a lot of ways too. I think it became prevalent as they tried to defend everything from scripture in answer to the Sola Scriptura claim. It's just that to get to a discussion of Catholic eisegesis one must first get past the popular misrepresentations of Catholic doctrine and most don't want to dig that deep. That's why it often seems I "defend" Catholicism so much, not because I agree with the dogma/doctrine but first one has to be discussing the actual dogma and doctrine.
I give you a classic example of Catholic eisegesis. Matthew 16:16-18 and how that gets read into Acts 15.
However, that is off topic to your and TLex discussion and I don't really want to get too involved
I guess I've got my terms confused. So, veneration is simply placing a great deal of adoration, respect and exaltation, including naming rights, feasts and holy days. Is that correct?
I define prayer probably in two ways, one is direct verbal (not necessarily outspoken) communication directly with the Father, the Son, and/or the Holy Spirit. the other is a mindfulness as Paul addresses in the phrase, "pray without ceasing." In that latter case, it's evident that prayer serves to align our will to that of the Father. Looking at Jesus's example of prayer, we see the separate components - veneration to God, repentance, seeking forgiveness and mercy, request for needs, and request for spiritual protection.
(Trigger warning for non-evangelicals and charismatics!)
Speaking of, note how Jesus precedes this example with a warning about prayer. The irony here is that we have take this example and turned it into a rote prayer!
I'm not sure I totally understand what you're saying. Can you give an example of how marriage has changed?
As to "I pray thee", I've said it several times.
Worship - that's probably the most fluid, as it tends to get skewed to meaning, "standing in a church and singing songs about God."
The confusion comes from (in Catholic theology vs Protestants) veneration vs adoration and how they are defined. Speaking technically, a Catholic should say that adoration (or worship) is reserved for God alone. So to use adoration in the definition of veneration would be incorrect in Catholic theology. Respect could be used in both as could exaltation.
Here is the crux of the problem. In Protestant theology, prayer has become "directed to God" by definition, but that is not what it meant when the Bibles were first being translated into English. At that time prayer was petitioning or entreating but although the connotation of asking someone with the power to grant the petition was there (king, royalty, etc), it certainly didn't mean a question directed to a divine entity. Most protestants do not recognize the historical distinction and apply only the modern understanding which immediately results in two parties talking past one another.
I'm not sure I totally understand what you're saying. Can you give an example of how marriage has changed?
As to "I pray thee", I've said it several times.
Worship - that's probably the most fluid, as it tends to get skewed to meaning, "standing in a church and singing songs about God."
Is marriage defined differently in the church you attend vs the society at large?
My point is hinted at in your last statement. Worship is adoration. Worship is not veneration. It has a very technical meaning and if that is allowed to become relative instead of absolute we have a problem
Let me give you another example.
I ask you do you believe in God?
JK: Yes.
Is Jesus God?
JK: Yes
Is the Father God?
JK: Yes
Is the Holy Spirit God?
JK: Yes.
So they are all God why do you insist that there are three persons? Why do you insist on having three different names for the same thing. After all they are all just God. Why do you want to complicate things?
we can do that all day long.
As long as the Protestant insists on the "fact" that Worship (adoration) is the same as veneration, then the conversation can't get past Go.
It is like trying to get a oneness Pentecostal to agree that there is a Trinity
How's the Weather??
I was watching this today and besides the fact he gets a lot of theology wrong....I heard the How's the weather question about a minute or 2 in and thought that if you guys heard the answer, you would think of me and say yep, that is absolutely right!
[video=youtube;f2iPocLLfls]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2iPocLLfls[/video]
I was watching this today and besides the fact he gets a lot of theology wrong....I heard the How's the weather question about a minute or 2 in and thought that if you guys heard the answer, you would think of me and say yep, that is absolutely right!
[video=youtube;f2iPocLLfls]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2iPocLLfls[/video]
OK, I'll concede that adoration (worship) is not the same as veneration, and that adoration shall not be applied to saints, but veneration may be (depending on your persuasion).
I'm impressed that your aware of those sorts of people!It is like trying to get a oneness Pentecostal to agree that there is a Trinity
OK, even I was offended when I heard, "However, [the Orthodox Church] is still a Roman Catholic knockoff."I was watching this today and besides the fact he gets a lot of theology wrong....I heard the How's the weather question about a minute or 2 in and thought that if you guys heard the answer, you would think of me and say yep, that is absolutely right!
[video=youtube;f2iPocLLfls]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2iPocLLfls[/video]
Then when he says about the Answers in Genesis guys[sic], "They don't make mistakes in their research."
...and yeah, "How's the weather?"
Yeah. That video is a microcosm of why I spend more time talking about Roman Catholicism than Orthodoxy
umm well as to the weather...in order to understand the weather one must learn to distinguish between climate and weather .... oh wait that was rhetorical
umm well as to the weather...in order to understand the weather one must learn to distinguish between climate and weather .... oh wait that was rhetorical
OK, even I was offended when I heard, "However, [the Orthodox Church] is still a Roman Catholic knockoff."
Then when he says about the Answers in Genesis guys[sic], "They don't make mistakes in their research."
...and yeah, "How's the weather?"
Well, again, there is a casualness regarding the language involved. Unless you're willing to concede that Protestants aren't always as precise in their language... noting foszoe's vid links.
So that's an inaccurate description by those involved, which may also involve certain translation issues.
The question to Señor Munoz included "intercession." That's the appropriate characterization. San Anton - it is believed - interceded on behalf of Munoz (and Horatio to a lesser extent) with the Trinity (most likely the Holy Spirit) who saw fit to help our protagonist. It is important to recognize the "where" of the intercession. It is not an earthly intercession. It is a heavenly intercession on our behalf with the God the Trinity.
That depends on "who" you think the angels are.
Couple things in this last quote, your formulation isn't really that far astray. Which, again, was the tradition of the early church and is not disproven by any biblical reference.
And, to reference foszoe's query about the definition of "prayer," I have an interesting aside. In legal pleadings, when you set forth your facts and argument asking the court to do something, the last paragraph (usually) is commonly called the "prayer for relief." Totally secular. We aren't praying to the judge for anything. It is a description of the part of the pleading where we ask for something.
Catholic kids are taught there are various types of prayer: thanksgiving, adoration, contrition and petition. That last one is, primarily, the classification (I think) for an intercessory prayer. We are asking God for something, and asking for some help on our behalf from a saint or several saints.
And I'm sorry - is the question still whether the practice/tradition is supported by scripture, or whether the individual prayers by people at any given time are properly framed? I believe there's sufficient showing that the former is true. The latter is dependent on the heart of the pray-er, which only God can know.
Once one makes it past the adoration is not veneration then the conversation can earnestly start.
A Roman Catholic will use terms like latria (worship), dulia (veneration), and hyperdulia (Reserved for Mary). Ask what the differences in these are and you will begin to see Catholic and Protestant theology truly diverge. (Orthodox too for that matter).
For example, Orthodox would say Latria can only occur in the communal "worship" of the Church. Biblically, I would argue that is the most Sola Scriptura interpretation for every time Latria is used in the NT, it is arguably in the context of the Church's (or Israel's) worship. The other prominent word translated worship is proskuneo, which literally means kiss or reverence (like kissing icons). Those two words are where the Orthodox would center their discussion if you ever want to do bible word studies
Dulia is, a latin term from the Greek doulos meaning slave more often translated servant (for political correctness). Like when Paul calls himself a bondservant or slave, it comes from doulos. I am not sure why Catholicism chose this term to make their case for veneration.
As to hyperdulia, I would argue against it and I don't think it is a biblical term.
A Roman Catholic will use terms like latria (worship), dulia (veneration), and hyperdulia (Reserved for Mary). Ask what the differences in these are and you will begin to see Catholic and Protestant theology truly diverge. (Orthodox too for that matter).
For example, Orthodox would say Latria can only occur in the communal "worship" of the Church. Biblically, I would argue that is the most Sola Scriptura interpretation for every time Latria is used in the NT, it is arguably in the context of the Church's (or Israel's) worship. The other prominent word translated worship is proskuneo, which literally means kiss or reverence (like kissing icons
). Those two words are where the Orthodox would center their discussion if you ever want to do bible word studies Dulia is, a latin term from the Greek doulos meaning slave more often translated servant (for political correctness). Like when Paul calls himself a bondservant or slave, it comes from doulos. I am not sure why Catholicism chose this term to make their case for veneration.
As to hyperdulia, I would argue against it and I don't think it is a biblical term.
Well, again, there is a casualness regarding the language involved. Unless you're willing to concede that Protestants aren't always as precise in their language... noting foszoe's vid links.
So that's an inaccurate description by those involved, which may also involve certain translation issues.
The question to Señor Munoz included "intercession." That's the appropriate characterization. San Anton - it is believed - interceded on behalf of Munoz (and Horatio to a lesser extent) with the Trinity (most likely the Holy Spirit) who saw fit to help our protagonist. It is important to recognize the "where" of the intercession. It is not an earthly intercession. It is a heavenly intercession on our behalf with the God the Trinity.
Spanish also has different words that are translated prayer and I was wondering if this was a transcript or a linguistic issue also....
I think "angels" are angels, i.e. non-humans.
My question is still, "what's the support and reasoning for praying to the saints who have left this earth?"
The reason has been well established and understood; it's the evidence to support the practice that's lacking.
So far, all I've read is:
1. There's very strong Biblical support for asking other Christians to pray for you in an intercessory manner.
2. All Christians are saints.
3. All the saints are part of the body - the church, even after death.
4. (and here's where it comes off the rail) John sees an apocalyptic vision of twenty-four elders holding bowls of prayers/incense.
5. Angels in Heaven rejoice when someone comes to Christ.
OK, so it's still a big leap to get to, "Christians who went to Heaven before us can hear our prayers, and it's profitable to prayer to them, because they're closer to God than we are, or they may have some specialized prayer power (e.g. like St. Anton's for pets)."
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