Carrier Corp. Moving out of Indy, 1,400 Jobs Gone

[halfmileharry]

Maybe we should contact our law makers and have them remove some mandatory restrictions that keep the companies from making an exceptable profit.
How many of you guys know how much it takes to keep the doors of a business open?
Govt interference can get very expensive. Hell, ask WalMart how much 'bamacare cost them per employee.
My business was a small but profitable venture. I couldn't move to a neighboring country to cut my labor costs.
I don't blame the work force for wanting all they can get BUT BUT BUT...there has to be a balance to keep their employers financially healthy. This is what happens when you try to use leverage against a large company. The workers basically get the big F.Y. by listening to the union thugs/telemarketers. I would bet the union staff still keep their jobs while the assembly line worker is walking a picket line until the company shuts down.
Then the union can blame the company for 100% of the problems of the workers. I lost a couple of very good jobs over the union coming in and trying to strong arm the owners. Try watching one of the nicest people you could ever work for cry on your shoulder because he's forced to shut down and relocate.

 

[HamYankee]

Unfortunate situation. I remember talking to a liberal not long ago. She flat out said she would rather be unemployed than have a job that pays less than $20/hr + benefits.

 

[bwframe]

....Govt interference can get very expensive. Hell, ask WalMart how much 'bamacare cost them per employee...

A lot of Gov't regulation is not readily in sight. Obamacare is now a given due to our weak assed politicians.
How much more is Carrier paying for employee healthcare? How much more have their purchased component and service prices risen due to Obamacare being the "law of the land?"

...I am looking at changing the brand of equipment we use from Carrier to Trane.
I can see a lot of crap coming out of that plant starting......well......today.

Good luck on your search. Looks like Trane has a manufacturing plant in Monterrey, Mexico also. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trane

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Company boycotts Carrier in sympathy of laid off workers | WISH-TV

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Fair enough, I'm not insulting any workers, and I'm sorry if it's taken that way, but doesn't the market set the wages?

The market? Yes. A free market? No. There is no free market of labor. "Free market" is an ideal, it exists on paper but not in reality. Real markets are on a sliding scale, and that includes the labor market.

For a truly free market, there would have to be perfect ease of entering and exiting the work force, there would have to be perfect ability to relocate, there would have to be equal negotiation power between all parties, etc. That's obviously an "on paper only" type thing. The ability to relocate is hampered by things like owning a house. You have an economic anchor, especially if you owe more than it's currently worth. You cannot afford to move to a new city even if your wages would be $2/hr more for the same job because of that. I can't go be a nurse without first obtaining the training and certifications to be a nurse. That market restriction is one reason nurses tend to make more money than, say, an EMT who faces market restrictions that are much easier to meet.

When one side has all the power, then the market is no longer free. This is *generally* in favor of the employer, but not always. As an example, Kansas put a moratorium on new EMS instructors. That changes the market place because it limits supply. People with those certifications could demand, and get, higher wages because they held something that was not easily replaceable. In short, what they did had the same value it always did, but the market wasn't free (it was now difficult to enter the marketplace) wages could increase for no other reason than market restrictions.

Declaring a political border a hindrance to trade is NOT free market. This move is actually closer to free market. The lowest paid workers are getting the jobs. If you want to compete, you just have to be willing to accept the same or lower wages. If you want the same regulatory environment, you just have to put up with the same levels of pollution, work place injury, etc. Or you can educate consumers to work against their own financial interest by convincing them to pay for products that support US workers at a US standard of living. Either is a free market solution.

 

[actaeon277]

I don't know that specific place. But I've worked for similar places. I'm one of the guys who designs the line that they work on. I design the HMI that they use to operate the equipment. I design the software that tracks their work and their mistakes.

I'm not denying that they work hard. I'm sure many do. But that doesn't mean their labor is worth $70,000 per year. The guy flipping burgers might work hard too, but it's on him to leverage that hard work in a way that can earn him the big bucks without union strong-arm tactics through government regulation.

And if they are paying these guys $20,000 in OT then something's wrong. They need more workers. They probably can't get them because of the union wanting to protect that OT.

Well, I can't speak for the Carrier plant.
But, here at a steel mill..
Those brilliant engineers that designed our rebuild, designed the line upside down. Multiple engineers, no one noticed. Not till a lowly tech pointed out the sled was upside down. Of course, the sled was correct, for the wrongly designed line.
Their solution, run the line upside down. Run the sled upside down. Of course, they had to flip the sled, which means one of the sensors gouges into the building structure. This would be the $400,000 sled.
And the rebuild was $40-$80 million, depending on the engineer you talk to.
Software.. patch after patch. Core concepts wrong.
Those lowly line workers operate multi million dollar equipment. And millions of $ of product goes through their control.
A mistake like I made a month or two ago cost 1/2 a million.
So, part of the pay is to keep trained quality workers.
As for the the OT, the company loves overtime. Hire the minimum crew. Then as the work surges, just work the **** out of the crew. I'll be scheduled a minimum of 40 hours. I think I worked 40 hours 5 or 6 times in 2015. I'll normally be scheduled 48-56 hours, sometimes 64. That's scheduled. Then, if something breaks, add on to that. Cause if something breaks and liquid steel is involved, it's nasty. During the rebuild, I was scheduled 72 hour weeks, except the first, and that was scheduled 88. I was able to talk them down to 80.
I only have 2 weekends a year that actually line up with a weekend. I work most holidays.
I have the pleasure of working in a place that kills and amputates. Just had a guy lost two fingers.
So, I think I'm worth more than someone in an office working 40, getting weekends, and maybe getting a papercut.

 

[actaeon277]

The market? Yes. A free market? No. There is no free market of labor. "Free market" is an ideal, it exists on paper but not in reality. Real markets are on a sliding scale, and that includes the labor market.

For a truly free market, there would have to be perfect ease of entering and exiting the work force, there would have to be perfect ability to relocate, there would have to be equal negotiation power between all parties, etc. That's obviously an "on paper only" type thing. The ability to relocate is hampered by things like owning a house. You have an economic anchor, especially if you owe more than it's currently worth. You cannot afford to move to a new city even if your wages would be $2/hr more for the same job because of that. I can't go be a nurse without first obtaining the training and certifications to be a nurse. That market restriction is one reason nurses tend to make more money than, say, an EMT who faces market restrictions that are much easier to meet.

When one side has all the power, then the market is no longer free. This is *generally* in favor of the employer, but not always. As an example, Kansas put a moratorium on new EMS instructors. That changes the market place because it limits supply. People with those certifications could demand, and get, higher wages because they held something that was not easily replaceable. In short, what they did had the same value it always did, but the market wasn't free (it was now difficult to enter the marketplace) wages could increase for no other reason than market restrictions.

Declaring a political border a hindrance to trade is NOT free market. This move is actually closer to free market. The lowest paid workers are getting the jobs. If you want to compete, you just have to be willing to accept the same or lower wages. If you want the same regulatory environment, you just have to put up with the same levels of pollution, work place injury, etc. Or you can educate consumers to work against their own financial interest by convincing them to pay for products that support US workers at a US standard of living. Either is a free market solution.

Yes. I'd like to add, you can't call it a free market, when people here have to deal with EPA, OSHA, etc, then not require the same from overseas products.

 

[actaeon277]

There is something that no one has said about this plant closing that also hurts us.

I have never worked at Carrier, nor have I ever seen the plant. But, I work in a small sheet metal shop on the east side of town that makes a tiny little part 6" long that when they move we will no longer make. Now this won't "kill" the company I work for but it will be one less job that we run. It isn't the first we have lost because of this and it won't be the last. That is also why I have went from working 64 to 70 hours in 6 days a week to 40 hours in 4 days a week.

This closing will effect a lot more than the 1400 that work at that plant. And I'm not just talking about their families. -Jason

Yup. Here at a steel mill, we not only employ employees and management, but...
contractors to do "surge work" such as a furnace rebuild, rebrick furnace, etc.
parts supplied. motors, generators, wire, automobiles, concrete, etc.
indirectly the community. We go to hotels. Eat at restaurants. Buy stuff.

Now for the $50,000 question: How are we gong to maintain our economy and survive with our cost of living when the paradigm has changed such that producers of goods are producing those goods in foreign countries with starvation wages yet still sell their products here at prices that traffic has been willing and able to bear under the old paradigm? What about our structure of taxation, food, energy, and so forth? An economy cannot operate without producing tangible goods of value, and we now have an entire system that inhibits doing so domestically. Can anyone justify expecting any outcome other than a trip down the toilet?

Well, the US is the major consumer. When it can no longer afford to consume, then who will buy all the stuff being made?
It won't.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Yes. I'd like to add, you can't call it a free market, when people here have to deal with EPA, OSHA, etc, then not require the same from overseas products.

I agree. I've seen what conditions look like with there's no effective EPA or OSHA organization. I'm sure there are areas they go overboard on and am not claiming the regulations are perfect...but the complete lack of them results in some pretty appalling things. It would be an interesting idea to see how a plan that required safe working conditions, minimal environmental damage, etc. for physical goods imported into the US, or high tariffs for items not meeting those requirements.

 

[halfmileharry]

Yup. Here at a steel mill, we not only employ employees and management, but...
contractors to do "surge work" such as a furnace rebuild, rebrick furnace, etc.
parts supplied. motors, generators, wire, automobiles, concrete, etc.
indirectly the community. We go to hotels. Eat at restaurants. Buy stuff.



Well, the US is the major consumer. When it can no longer afford to consume, then who will buy all the stuff being made?
It won't.

Fewer people will buy in a slow economy.

 

[steveh_131]

A lot of Gov't regulation is not readily in sight. Obamacare is now a given due to our weak assed politicians.
How much more is Carrier paying for employee healthcare? How much more have their purchased component and service prices risen due to Obamacare being the "law of the land?"

Obamacare and other regulations are certainly playing a role in addition to unions.

The market? Yes. A free market? No. There is no free market of labor. "Free market" is an ideal, it exists on paper but not in reality. Real markets are on a sliding scale, and that includes the labor market.

For a truly free market, there would have to be perfect ease of entering and exiting the work force, there would have to be perfect ability to relocate, there would have to be equal negotiation power between all parties, etc. That's obviously an "on paper only" type thing. The ability to relocate is hampered by things like owning a house. You have an economic anchor, especially if you owe more than it's currently worth. You cannot afford to move to a new city even if your wages would be $2/hr more for the same job because of that. I can't go be a nurse without first obtaining the training and certifications to be a nurse. That market restriction is one reason nurses tend to make more money than, say, an EMT who faces market restrictions that are much easier to meet.

Where are you getting this definition of a 'free market'? That is definitely not the definition.

A free market is one where companies compete without government regulation or interference. Of course there will be real-world limitations on that competition. It is still a free market.

This is just an attempt to try to trump up justifications for even more government interference to fix a market that is already completely screwed UP by government interference. It doesn't make any sense.

Less regulation, less taxes, less government. These are the principles that made the USA an economic powerhouse. It is time to get back to them.

 

[steveh_131]

Those lowly line workers operate multi million dollar equipment. And millions of $ of product goes through their control.
A mistake like I made a month or two ago cost 1/2 a million.
So, part of the pay is to keep trained quality workers.
As for the the OT, the company loves overtime. Hire the minimum crew. Then as the work surges, just work the **** out of the crew. I'll be scheduled a minimum of 40 hours. I think I worked 40 hours 5 or 6 times in 2015. I'll normally be scheduled 48-56 hours, sometimes 64. That's scheduled. Then, if something breaks, add on to that. Cause if something breaks and liquid steel is involved, it's nasty. During the rebuild, I was scheduled 72 hour weeks, except the first, and that was scheduled 88. I was able to talk them down to 80.
I only have 2 weekends a year that actually line up with a weekend. I work most holidays.
I have the pleasure of working in a place that kills and amputates. Just had a guy lost two fingers.
So, I think I'm worth more than someone in an office working 40, getting weekends, and maybe getting a papercut.

In a free market, you are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay you for your time without any government coercion.

If someone isn't willing to pay you that amount for your time without union/government coercion, then you're not worth that amount. Plain and simple.

 

[actaeon277]

In a free market, you are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay you for your time without any government coercion.

If someone isn't willing to pay you that amount for your time without union/government coercion, then you're not worth that amount. Plain and simple.

without union/gov coercion.
Our corporation is so big, they often get mad at their managers when the union has to bring up stuff.
new managers that try to fire valuable employees for not washing their (the manager's car). or trying to fire the employee for not doing what the manager said, even though what the manager said would have caused millions of dollars of damage.
So it seems a draw.

 

[steveh_131]

without union/gov coercion.
Our corporation is so big, they often get mad at their managers when the union has to bring up stuff.
new managers that try to fire valuable employees for not washing their (the manager's car). or trying to fire the employee for not doing what the manager said, even though what the manager said would have caused millions of dollars of damage.
So it seems a draw.

If the management wants to act ridiculous then they have the right to do so.

A free market can take care of ridiculous management.

 

[actaeon277]

If the management wants to act ridiculous then they have the right to do so.

A free market can take care of ridiculous management.

Yes. With a major company going out causing the loss of tens of thousands of jobs directly.
Or, the union and management can work together, trying to keep the company in business.

 

[steveh_131]

Yes. With a major company going out causing the loss of tens of thousands of jobs directly.
Or, the union and management can work together, trying to keep the company in business.

Sure they can. Voluntarily.

I have no issue with voluntary unions, as long as they leave the government out of it.

Instead they want to use the government as their own personal leg-breaker to get themselves obscene wages and benefits and they push the business underwater without management having to be ridiculous at all.

 

[PistolBob]

"Carrier’s workers are separated into a two-tier wage system. A quarter of the workers make about $14 an hour, or about $30,000 a year. The rest make about $26 an hour, or about $55,000, but make well above $70,000 a year with overtime, Jones said."

$14/$26 per/hr is not a very high wage. The $26 is a good wage, but not over the top.

http://www.indystar.com/story/money/2016/02/10/carrier-move-indy-unit-mexico-eliminate-1400-jobs/80181804/

That's bad info. A group leader with 17 years makes $23/hr...less than 48K a year base pay (40 hours at 52 weeks). They get no pension. They get a 401K. At time and a half for OT to gross 70K they'd have to have almost 13 hours of OT per week, every week. Which ain't happening. I know this because I do taxes for quite a few Carrier employees. The median wage for a family of four in the US is about $53K. So most of the Carrier workers are working to earn BELOW the median wage.

They're not killing it by any means.

 

[steveh_131]

That's bad info. A group leader with 17 years makes $23/hr...less than 48K a year base pay (40 hours at 52 weeks). They get no pension. They get a 401K. At time and a half for OT to gross 70K they'd have to have almost 13 hours of OT per week, every week. Which ain't happening. I know this because I do taxes for quite a few Carrier employees. The median wage for a family of four in the US is about $53K. So most of the Carrier workers are working to earn BELOW the median wage.

They're not killing it by any means.

How many of their employees have you worked with to come up with this sample data set?

 

[wabash]

are there two tiers of employees? (the 14s and the 26s?)

did they start paying new employees less after a certain hiring date?


was this announcement a surprise to most of the workers?

 

[PistolBob]

How many of their employees have you worked with to come up with this sample data set?

Literally 8 or 9 and I believe them.