Carrier Corp. Moving out of Indy, 1,400 Jobs Gone

[steveh_131]

Literally 8 or 9 and I believe them.

8 or 9 out of 1,400? This is not a very good sample size.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Where are you getting this definition of a 'free market'? That is definitely not the definition.

A free market is one where companies compete without government regulation or interference. .

Free market is an ideal, not something that exists in reality. It exists only in economics text books and political speeches. A free market requires perfect competition, and hindrance to competition comes from multiple sources beyond just government regulation. In some instances, regulation encourages competition and makes the market more free. Price fixing is a good example, where sellers agree to maintain a certain price instead of competing against one another, thus restricting the market.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc.

So was that "free market" of the price fixers? Or did government anti-trust laws increase competition and move the market closer to the ideal? Of course, patent and trademark laws are also anti-free market, so I suppose you can argue that the publisher having a monopoly on the rights to the works caused the issue. You just have to give allowing people to reap the rewards for their art in furtherance of chasing that ideal.

 

[sbnewsom]

If anyone here looking at this thread is an industrial automation engineer, and looking for a new job, send me a message. Would be happy to help some of my brothers get out of carrier and onto a local business.

 

[steveh_131]

Free market is an ideal, not something that exists in reality. It exists only in economics text books and political speeches. A free market requires perfect competition, and hindrance to competition comes from multiple sources beyond just government regulation.

No, perfect competition is the non-reality ideal. A free market does not require 'perfect competition'. That is not its definition.

an economic market or system in which prices are based on competition among private businesses and not controlled by a government

- Webster

In some instances, regulation encourages competition and makes the market more free. Price fixing is a good example, where sellers agree to maintain a certain price instead of competing against one another, thus restricting the market.

Price fixing can not be anything more than a temporary issue, absent government intervention. There will always be another seller willing to swoop in and sell a similar product for a realistic price.

So was that "free market" of the price fixers? Or did government anti-trust laws increase competition and move the market closer to the ideal?

Yes, that was a free market and no, big government did not make it more free. There is a wide market of ebooks out there. If you don't like the price of one, pick another one.

Of course, patent and trademark laws are also anti-free market, so I suppose you can argue that the publisher having a monopoly on the rights to the works caused the issue.

I agree with you in this instance, they are anti free market.

You just have to give allowing people to reap the rewards for their art in furtherance of chasing that ideal.

'Allowing' is the wrong word. 'Enforcing', perhaps? 'Enabling'? 'Allowing' implies that the government prevents them from doing so or that it is the government's responsibility to ensure that people are rewarded for their art. In the real world, artists are responsible for finding ways to monetize their own art - not using Big Government to make sure their endeavors are profitable.

 

[PistolBob]

8 or 9 out of 1,400? This is not a very good sample size.

It's 8 or 9 more than you.

 

[steveh_131]

It's 8 or 9 more than you.

Gonna need more than that for me to take your wild guess over what the news sources are reporting and what my experience with union facilities tells me.

 

[AA&E]

The jist is that yes , the union had A LOT to do with it .

If you were hired on prior to their last signing of the current contract (2013 I think) you are making over $20.00 an hour .

Everybody after that started at $15.50 unless you were in a skilled trade position .

I talked to a supervisor friend there and he said they worked 9 weeks straight of 7 days a week (haven't spoke to him in a couple of months) so it might have been more for the entire 2015 year . OT after 8 hours so yeah plenty of folks making 70K over there .

There's even an actual Hoffa working there , a cousin of that one we all heard of . Even he was disgusted by what the union had turned into and he was a union for life kinda guy .

Where I worked ( the warehouse) you had to have at least 10 years seniority to bid into a job there .

I'm not gonna tell all the stories but you basically had to walk in and jihad somebody right in front of everybody on the dock and you still might not get fired permanently .

Permanently ??? Yes , you can get fired for being an idiot , not doing your job / whatever and the union would still manage to get your job back WITH back pay for the time you were off and no loss of seniority , I've seen it happen .

One job in particular , driving a fork lift feeding the line might only actually " work " 3-4 hours in a 10 hour shift and there were plenty of jobs like that .

Long story short , every bad preconception of union employees was on full display all day every day at that place .

If you weren't all about the union , you weren't welcome and would get harassed .

I'm not saying there weren't plenty of good folks there but they were vastly outnumbered by union ****heads .

Just my opinion here, people making 70K a year, only due to their willingness to work seven days a week... strikes me as ridiculous. Much of that 70K is coming from overtime. On a 40 - 50 hour week what are those people making? Mid 40's if they are lucky. These numbers do not reflect a union putting it to the corporation.

 

[AA&E]

Frustrating thread to follow. I see blame being distributed in many directions... unions are to blame... governmental interference is to blame.. workers getting paid too much for unskilled labor.... at least these people were out working and making their own way. Next year these workers will be surviving on government subsidies and people will complain about them being what is wrong with America... lazy and unwilling to provide for themselves. Astounding thought process..

 

[DoggyDaddy]

If I were king... I would tell any companies wanting to move offshore to save money, "Fine. You can move offshore. But if you try to sell any of your products in the U.S., I will put import tariffs on your products that are so high it will make your head spin. Good luck selling to the third world economy that you're moving to."

 

[churchmouse]

If I were king... I would tell any companies wanting to move offshore to save money, "Fine. You can move offshore. But if you try to sell any of your products in the U.S., I will put import tariffs on your products that are so high it will make your head spin. Good luck selling to the third world economy that you're moving to."

 

[churchmouse]

The rumblings from local HVAC folks (Suppliers/users) seems to be pretty negative.
There will be a Brand boycot by many.

 

[steveh_131]

Frustrating thread to follow. I see blame being distributed in many directions... unions are to blame... governmental interference is to blame.. workers getting paid too much for unskilled labor.... at least these people were out working and making their own way. Next year these workers will be surviving on government subsidies and people will complain about them being what is wrong with America... lazy and unwilling to provide for themselves. Astounding thought process..

Well there are reasons that our nation is hostile to business owners. I think it is worthwhile to discuss those reasons and what we can do to fix them.

Directing your anger at the company and the shareholders who want to *gasp* turn a profit is irrational.

Anger should be directed at unions and their government cronies, the EPA, OSHA, IRS, Obamacare, etc. All played a role in driving overhead costs so high that it was more profitable to move the company out of the U.S.

 

[CampingJosh]

The rumblings from local HVAC folks (Suppliers/users) seems to be pretty negative.
There will be a Brand boycot by many.

I've have 4 furnaces needing replaced soon, so I've been collecting quotes. Of the two I've gotten back so far, one company did still list Carrier, but the other (much bigger) company didn't. When I asked about it, the guy laughed and told me they'd never sell Carrier again.

 

[AA&E]

Well there are reasons that our nation is hostile to business owners. I think it is worthwhile to discuss those reasons and what we can do to fix them.

Directing your anger at the company and the shareholders who want to *gasp* turn a profit is irrational.

Anger should be directed at unions and their government cronies, the EPA, OSHA, IRS, Obamacare, etc. All played a role in driving overhead costs so high that it was more profitable to move the company out of the U.S.

They've been turning a profit for decades.. this is driven by the desire to create a much bigger profit because free trade initiatives have screwed over the American worker by removing tariffs. The USA is the largest consumer marketplace on the planet. YOUR way of thinking is killing that marketplace. One day in the not so distant future Americans will not be buying a damn thing because they are sustaining themselves with McJobs because people were more concerned with the profits and dividends paid to the select few over the good of the many.

 

[AA&E]

I've have 4 furnaces needing replaced soon, so I've been collecting quotes. Of the two I've gotten back so far, one company did still list Carrier, but the other (much bigger) company didn't. When I asked about it, the guy laughed and told me they'd never sell Carrier again.

Good. I won't buy Whirlpool for the same reason after moving the Evansville facility to Mexico. Vote with your dollars and don't become a corporate apologist. These decisions impact far more then just the direct employment of these facilities.

 

[churchmouse]

I've have 4 furnaces needing replaced soon, so I've been collecting quotes. Of the two I've gotten back so far, one company did still list Carrier, but the other (much bigger) company didn't. When I asked about it, the guy laughed and told me they'd never sell Carrier again.

I have 2 quotes with folks who are considering upgrades on their equipment. Both were quoted Carrier.
I have been requested to quote another brand on them.
Doing this today.

 

[churchmouse]

They've been turning a profit for decades.. this is driven by the desire to create a much bigger profit because free trade initiatives have screwed over the American worker by removing tariffs. The USA is the largest consumer marketplace on the planet. YOUR way of thinking is killing that marketplace. One day in the not so distant future Americans will not be buying a damn thing because they are sustaining themselves with McJobs because people were more concerned with the profits and dividends paid to the select few over the good of the many.

This is the end result of moving these jobs out of the country.
I am seeing it already.
When I graduated High School I had several "Choices" as to where my life would go "JOB" wise. Several manufacturing jobs openly advertising for help.
I worked at the plant in question for a while and decided factory life was not for me. There was a huge lay off that helped me make this decision but I had options.
Today......these options are fewer. Almost non-existent.

 

[steveh_131]

One day in the not so distant future Americans will not be buying a damn thing because they are sustaining themselves with McJobs because people were more concerned with the profits and dividends paid to the select few over the good of the many.

Exactly what fantasy world have you been living in for your entire life where every single business and corporation in the nation wasn't more concerned with profits and dividends than the 'good of the many'?

This is human nature. You can't fight it. You can't stop it. Business owners bust their butts to make money, not because they want to contribute to the community.

What you're proposing is that we continue to take a dump on American businesses with our onerous taxes and regulations and union leg-breakers - but then want to DOUBLE punish these companies for going somewhere that doesn't dump on them. All that will accomplish is to continue artificially inflating our cost of living and our currency, causing this vicious cycle to continue.

But sure, go ahead and blame 'my way of thinking' for all of this.

 

[AA&E]

This is the end result of moving these jobs out of the country.
I am seeing it already.
When I graduated High School I had several "Choices" as to where my life would go "JOB" wise. Several manufacturing jobs openly advertising for help.
I worked at the plant in question for a while and decided factory life was not for me. There was a huge lay off that helped me make this decision but I had options.
Today......these options are fewer. Almost non-existent.

When I graduated in 1990 in dubois county you had an abundance of manufacturing job opportunities starting at $12/hour. Today there are very few opportunities and they start around $12/hour. 26 years later....

The influx of jobs leaving our nation + the influx of available workers due to 25,000,000 illegal immigrants flooding the marketplace have screwed the American worker. I think this is why the blue collar has hijacked the republican party and started backing someone like Trump. They've done it to themselves by voting against our interests for decades.

 

[AA&E]

Exactly what fantasy world have you been living in for your entire life where every single business and corporation in the nation wasn't more concerned with profits and dividends than the 'good of the many'?

This is human nature. You can't fight it. You can't stop it. Business owners bust their butts to make money, not because they want to contribute to the community.

What you're proposing is that we continue to take a dump on American businesses with our onerous taxes and regulations and union leg-breakers - but then want to DOUBLE punish these companies for going somewhere that doesn't dump on them. All that will accomplish is to continue artificially inflating our cost of living and our currency, causing this vicious cycle to continue.

But sure, go ahead and blame 'my way of thinking' for all of this.

And what fantasy world do you reside in where the largest consumer driven economy being driven to the brink of extinction doesn't harm these corporations 10 fold down the road. It's that short sighted mentality that's even more frustrating then those that can't see the immediate impact.