Another "victimless crime"

[churchmouse]

Yeah, we have to get out of this mentality that we are entitled to other people's stuff.

It is far deeper ingrained than folks know.
They way youngsters (30's-ish) spout off about their rights is amazing.

No you do not have the right to do this and that. Where did you hear that. Oh all my friends so yada yada yada and so on. I have a pocket version of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. When offered to look it up they always decline.

 

[Woobie]

It is far deeper ingrained than folks know.
They way youngsters (30's-ish) spout off about their rights is amazing.

No you do not have the right to do this and that. Where did you hear that. Oh all my friends so yada yada yada and so on. I have a pocket version of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. When offered to look it up they always decline.

Just listen to commercials sometime. The word "deserve" is in at least every other one. Eventually it works its way in to people's brains.

There is no such thing as "deserving", just as there is no such thing as "fair". There is only the exchange of value.

 

[Alpo]

Luke 6:20-21 Then he looked up at his disciples and said: ‘Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
‘Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you will be filled. ‘Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.

Luke 4:16-19 When he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, he went to the synagogue on the sabbath day, as was his custom. He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written:
‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favour.’

Matthew 25:34-36 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.”

Mark 10:21-22 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

Mark 12:41-44 He sat down opposite the treasury, and watched the crowd putting money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which are worth a penny. Then he called his disciples and said to them, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. For all of them have contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”

Luke 14:12-14 He said also to the one who had invited him, “When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, in case they may invite you in return, and you would be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Luke 16:19-25 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man’s table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried.

Luke 12:16-21 Then he told them a parable: “The land of a rich man produced abundantly. And he thought to himself, ‘What should I do, for I have no place to store my crops?’ Then he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, ‘Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.’ But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life is being demanded of you. And the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ So it is with those who store up treasures for themselves but are not rich toward God.”

The poor have always been blamed. Jesus saw it differently, don'tcha think?

 

[Woobie]

The poor have always been blamed. Jesus saw it differently, don'tcha think?

Saw it differently from what?

 

[Alpo]

Not "from what". From whom.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

The poor have always been blamed. Jesus saw it differently, don'tcha think?

I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic. My point, as Woobie pointed out, was not to lay blame but to point to a cure. (As much as one can cure human frailties, anyway). Are you asserting in the passages quoted, that Jesus was stating that the continuation of the welfare state was the answer? I'd love to see how you twist scripture to draw that conclusion.

 

[churchmouse]

Interesting turn.

Oh, did I already post that.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Interesting turn.

Oh, did I already post that.

There are many things we do out of compassion. The various government programs, I believe, were mostly done out of compassion so that little old ladies didn't freeze to death in their homes and that little kids don't starve to death because their parents can't afford rent and food. But we're living with the unintended consequences of those good intentions. Throwing money at people through a undiscerning, un-caring, money skimming, government filter, I believe largely, is a curse.

 

[Woobie]

Not "from what". From whom.

Can you use plain English? Articulate for us what you think Jesus thought, and how that differs from who/what/where/when/why.

 

[Alpo]

I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic. My point, as Woobie pointed out, was not to lay blame but to point to a cure. (As much as one can cure human frailties, anyway). Are you asserting in the passages quoted, that Jesus was stating that the continuation of the welfare state was the answer? I'd love to see how you twist scripture to draw that conclusion.

You introduced "biblical". So, I googled what Jesus said about the poor. It seems to me His position was quite clear. How you can view that as "twisting" things is beyond me.

And while many will say that the churches have always taken care of the poor, one needs only look at the 19th century to see that they could not cope with the level of poverty that existed in this country (or elsewhere).

I'm not making a case for welfare. I just wish that people would stop blaming the poor for their problems.

 

[Alpo]

Can you use plain English? Articulate for us what you think Jesus thought, and how that differs from who/what/where/when/why.

You wish an ungrammatical response? I'm not sure I'm capable of articulating confusion.

I don't need to speak to what Jesus meant. His words are quite clear. If you choose to be confused, that would appear to be a personal matter.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

You introduced "biblical". So, I googled what Jesus said about the poor. It seems to me His position was quite clear. How you can view that as "twisting" things is beyond me.

And while many will say that the churches have always taken care of the poor, one needs only look at the 19th century to see that they could not cope with the level of poverty that existed in this country (or elsewhere).

I'm not making a case for welfare. I just wish that people would stop blaming the poor for their problems.

I wasn't blaming the poor for anything. I was blaming the welfare state. And I'll not chase you any farther down another one of your rabbit holes.

 

[Alpo]

Yes. I saw that. You want the government to enforce "work for food". No exceptions.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Yes. I saw that. You want the government to enforce "work for food". No exceptions.

No exceptions is not biblical. Thanks for making break my word for not chasing you down one of your ever changing goal post rabbit holes.

 

[Woobie]

You wish an ungrammatical response? I'm not sure I'm capable of articulating confusion.

I don't need to speak to what Jesus meant. His words are quite clear. If you choose to be confused, that would appear to be a personal matter.

No need to be silly.

Ok, let's try this again. You said Jesus thought differently. The word "differently" requires competing positions. I did not infer what you implied as the position opposite Jesus'. Please articulate that position.

Speaking in half-developed sentences and perceived gotchas doesnt contribute to the conversation. For reference on this look at posts #173 and #178.

 

[Alpo]

I only repeated what you stated

Until we adopt the biblical policy of if you don't work, you don't eat will we see much of a decline of this problem.

If you wish to qualify the remark, feel free. I'm unable to give you any latitude when you reference the bible and starvation in the same sentence.

I also look to the future, where more jobs are going to be consumed by automation, population will continue to grow and an intrusive government (no matter what country) further limits liberty. It isn't a pretty picture.

This is far from the topic in one context, but not necessarily off point. What will a society with fewer requirements for human ergs do with all the extra people?

 

[eldirector]

This is far from the topic in one context, but not necessarily off point. What will a society with fewer requirements for human ergs do with all the extra people?

.
If the population outgrows the available resources, it will shrink. Sometimes crash. The specifics of "how" can be debated. With the human proclivity for war, though.... It is indeed "not a pretty picture".

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I only repeated what you stated If you wish to qualify the remark, feel free. I'm unable to give you any latitude when you reference the bible and starvation in the same sentence.

I also look to the future, where more jobs are going to be consumed by automation, population will continue to grow and an intrusive government (no matter what country) further limits liberty. It isn't a pretty picture.

This is far from the topic in one context, but not necessarily off point. What will a society with fewer requirements for human ergs do with all the extra people?

I'm not that great at apologetics's but this one is easy. All the information needed to answer your concern is contained right here in this thread. The verses that talk about work or don't eat are meant to apply to those that are able to but choose not to. Your passages counterbalance your accusation of "no exceptions ". The verses you quoted tell us we have an obligation to help those in need but don't require us to subsidize those that won't work according to their ability. Surely that is obvious.

 

[Alpo]

Agree. I'm not fond of "absolutes" either. Just as "the poor" is not a homogeneous group, neither is welfare related thereto. However, we seem to group all welfare recipients in the same basket, don't we?

How we break the cycle of generational poverty and the negative cultural attributes that promote law-breaking and drug use are something I have no answer for. But, a biblical work or die viewpoint seems not to be an answer.

 

[Woobie]

Agree. I'm not fond of "absolutes" either. Just as "the poor" is not a homogeneous group, neither is welfare related thereto. However, we seem to group all welfare recipients in the same basket, don't we?

How we break the cycle of generational poverty and the negative cultural attributes that promote law-breaking and drug use are something I have no answer for. But, a biblical work or die viewpoint seems not to be an answer.

Is that a royal we? I don't.

The "work or die" viewpoint isn't biblical if applied improperly.