Another "victimless crime"

[churchmouse]

So humans aren't responsible for drug crimes? Its the drugs fault?

This is the same logic gun grabbers use.

Start weeding out the extreme users.
Post #128. Give them limits. Push them and bye bye.

Post #129. Eldirector put up some good questions.

 

[Fargo]

First, what I posted stands on its own.

Second, blaming, demonizing or criminalizing objects rather than individual human choices and actions seems fairly comparable to me.

I don't blame objects, I blame people who choose to use objects they know will deprive them of both reason and free will. I deal with heroin addict's on a weekly basis, they are all unanimous that at the time that they are sick, i.e. withdrawing, their free will and reason at best broken and at worst gone.

Owning a weapon to preserve your life is the exact opposite of this, which is why the analogy is false and broken.

 

[ATM]

I don't blame objects,...

Good, but many do, so the general analogy fits.

I blame people who choose to use objects they know will deprive them of both reason and free will. I deal with heroin addict's on a weekly basis, they are all unanimous that at the time that they are sick, i.e. withdrawing, their free will and reason at best broken and at worst gone.

Good.

Owning a weapon to preserve your life is the exact opposite of this, which is why the analogy is false and broken.

The analogy compared those who blame objects rather than individual choices and actions. If you aren't one who does that, it doesn't ruin the analogy in any way, because others still do. The analogy doesn't hang on everyone blaming the object.

 

[Woobie]

I want the guy who wants the death penalty for dealers to come back in here and see if he's ready to bring the VA to his brand of justice, or if they're totally cool because government and stuff.

It's easy to blame drugs, because it's hard to blame people. The Dr. Spock generation wants to coddle everyone and pretend their bad choices aren't their own, it's some nasty gun/plant/car/thing at fault. We can't admit people are broken, because that means we might be broken or breakable. Parents let the tablets and Disney raise their kids, insulate them from every harm possible, and tell them they are special. Then those kids grow up (chronologically, at least) and realize as adults that life sucks, and they have to work hard to get anywhere. So they stick a needle in their arm or a gun in their mouth. And we sit around wondering what happened, and conclude it was the drugs.

Things don't make choices. People do. And choices have consequences. Children must be raised, not to be special, but to be hard working and wise. Then they will make choices with positive consequences and work to realize those consequences.

Nah, it's the drugs.

 

[hoosierdoc]

The problem with that logic is the assumption that all objects are the same. They are not.

if you shoot a gun once, you may like it and want to shoot it again some day.

if you shoot heroin, your body may crave it and you may NEED to shoot it again, and soon.

Good, but many do, so the general analogy fits.



Good.



The analogy compared those who blame objects rather than individual choices and actions. If you aren't one who does that, it doesn't ruin the analogy in any way, because others still do. The analogy doesn't hang on everyone blaming the object.

 

[ATM]

The problem with that logic is the assumption that all objects are the same. They are not.

if you shoot a gun once, you may like it and want to shoot it again some day.

if you shoot heroin, your body may crave it and you may NEED to shoot it again, and soon.

The comparison was of so-called "drug crimes" to "gun crimes", not drugs to guns. I do not assume all objects to be the same, that would be silly.

Crimes are crimes, objects are objects, vices are vices. Mixing or conflating those should be avoided.

 

[HoughMade]

It's worth the listen...then the read.

Sam Quinones on Heroin, the Opioid Epidemic, and Dreamland | EconTalk | Library of Economics and Liberty

 

[307SD]

It's worth the listen...then the read.

Sam Quinones on Heroin, the Opioid Epidemic, and Dreamland | EconTalk | Library of Economics and Liberty

I read the narrative, very interesting, thanks for the link.

FWIW: I know two people who have had an adult child OD on heroin and one friend/co-worker who was addicted, and has been clean now for 60 plus days.

 

[Woobie]

It's worth the listen...then the read.

Sam Quinones on Heroin, the Opioid Epidemic, and Dreamland | EconTalk | Library of Economics and Liberty

Excellent stuff. Thanks for posting.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Right.......Firearms ownership rewrites the chemical patterns in the brain to the point that I am no longer able to feel pleasure and in fact feel intense pain if I don't get my fix of firearm ownership every day. LOL

Whew! And I thought I was the only one...

 

[churchmouse]

The problem with that logic is the assumption that all objects are the same. They are not.

if you shoot a gun once, you may like it and want to shoot it again some day.

if you shoot heroin, your body may crave it and you may NEED to shoot it again, and soon.

There were choices here. On both counts. Choosing to get that needle in your arm is what ATM is trying to example.....a seriously bad choice.

 

[churchmouse]

All the info is out there. Heroin is addictive. The life style may end you. This is a choice. The drug will not come and talk you into this idiocy.

Banning drugs is not the answer. Legalizing is even worse as we would be condoning the action.

Reducing the supply is a start. Not the answer.

 

[Woobie]

All the info is out there. Heroin is addictive. The life style may end you. This is a choice. The drug will not come and talk you into this idiocy.

Banning drugs is not the answer. Legalizing is even worse as we would be condoning the action.

Reducing the supply is a start. Not the answer.

Legalizing alcohol was not seen as condoning drunk driving, or spouse abuse, or alcoholism.

I fully support the idea that these problems are the result of individual choices. So it is the choices that must be fixed, not the inanimate object. But once bad choices have been made, and the mind is under the control of the drug, people need serious help.

I highly doubt it is possible to reduce the supply. There isn't a lot of history to suggest that can be done. There are too many sources. We will have to fix the demand. That can not be done with a stick, and maybe not even with a carrot. Instead we will have to get out of the high seat and grab the yoke. That is harder and dirtier work, but it will be the testament of our humanity. Do we actually care about the addicts? Or do we just want people to stop doing naughty things?

 

[BE Mike]

Legalizing alcohol was not seen as condoning drunk driving, or spouse abuse, or alcoholism.

I fully support the idea that these problems are the result of individual choices. So it is the choices that must be fixed, not the inanimate object. But once bad choices have been made, and the mind is under the control of the drug, people need serious help.

Unfortunately the people needing serious help, have to realize that they need it and then really want it. Unfortunately most times they never reach that point. Sometimes they do when they reach bottom or have that 2x4 hit them in the head (like that old mule) to get their attention. So, we're back to an individual's choice and with the attraction of the drugs or alcohol, I think they'll nearly always choose that. Unfortunately the communities have to foot the bill, either by trying to provide needles or medications or even worse the bill of drug/ alcohol driven crimes. So what's the answer?

 

[Woobie]

Unfortunately the people needing serious help, have to realize that they need it and then really want it. Unfortunately most times they never reach that point. Sometimes they do when they reach bottom or have that 2x4 hit them in the head (like that old mule) to get their attention. So, we're back to an individual's choice and with the attraction of the drugs or alcohol, I think they'll nearly always choose that. Unfortunately the communities have to foot the bill, either by trying to provide needles or medications or even worse the bill of drug/ alcohol driven crimes. So what's the answer?

Stop wasting money on prohibition and divert it to things that work. Address the demand to reduce the burden on tax payers.

 

[BE Mike]

Stop wasting money on prohibition and divert it to things that work. Address the demand to reduce the burden on tax payers.

That is my question...What works? I don't see any solution to the problem. No new ideas coming down the pike. Legalization isn't a solution IMHO, it just tears at the moral fiber of our society. Even if made legal, dopers would still have to get money to buy the legal drugs. I don't think the taxpayers should be shouldered with paying for the heroin, et al. Nobody is going to give a job to a heroin addict, even if the addict wanted one.

 

[Woobie]

That is my question...What works? I don't see any solution to the problem. No new ideas coming down the pike. Legalization isn't a solution IMHO, it just tears at the moral fiber of our society. Even if made legal, dopers would still have to get money to buy the legal drugs. I don't think the taxpayers should be shouldered with paying for the heroin, et al. Nobody is going to give a job to a heroin addict, even if the addict wanted one.

If the moral fabric of our society is woven out of prohibition, propping up drug cartels, rampant violence and expansive federal powers, it needs to be torn.

I love the argument: well I don't want to buy heroin. Cool. But you are enriching the cartels. You are encouraging massive amounts of violence in this hemisphere. What we are doing is the worst possible thing. We are not helping addicts, we are barely stemming the flow of drugs, and we are causing all the problems I mentioned above.

Treatment sometimes works. Education can work. A reform of our medical policies with regard to pain management will definitely be required. New technology on the addiction treatment and pain management fronts will help. Community involvement will help. Ultimately, though, we will never be free of this plague entirely. Man is a broken creature with only one Hope. No law can decree it for him, no gun can force it on him, no program can bring it to him, and no amount of money can buy it for him. And as long as he sees himself as hopeless, some individuals will stick needles in their arm to escape it for awhile.

 

[churchmouse]

Legalizing alcohol was not seen as condoning drunk driving, or spouse abuse, or alcoholism.

I fully support the idea that these problems are the result of individual choices. So it is the choices that must be fixed, not the inanimate object. But once bad choices have been made, and the mind is under the control of the drug, people need serious help.

I highly doubt it is possible to reduce the supply. There isn't a lot of history to suggest that can be done. There are too many sources. We will have to fix the demand. That can not be done with a stick, and maybe not even with a carrot. Instead we will have to get out of the high seat and grab the yoke. That is harder and dirtier work, but it will be the testament of our humanity. Do we actually care about the addicts? Or do we just want people to stop doing naughty things?

Lets look at this from the standpoint that this thing has gotten out of control.
We are searching for answers. We need a plan here. Nothing we have tried is working. The penaltys are having a minimal impact as the end users are not being held to task for their actions.
They waste public resources. They use up an unfair share of 1st responder budget. We are reviving them only to have them repeat time and time again. Nothing is being done to stop this madness.

Now, how in the world will legalizing this activity curtail it.
It will not. This will end up a deeper burden on the tax payers than it is right now.

Do I care, yes. Yes I do care. Deeply. I care for the kids who are subjected to the idiocy of the parents. They are the innocents in all of this and this is a deeper rabbit hole than we are aware of.

I care for the family's torn apart by both alcohol and drug abuse.

An addict will remain so until they make a lucid decision to stop. It has to be them and not us that mandates this. It is up to them.
Same with a smoker. They can stop if they want to.
A heavy drinker (this was me years ago) can stop or control it if they choose to.

My brother.....I have grabbed the yoke. I have rode the storm. I near lost my son to this dark madness. Not heroin but a darkness just as bad and possibly worse.
I know how this goes. It does not go our way no matter how we try or what we do. It is up to them. They choose to start. They also have to make the decision to stop. Many of the young people he went to school with did not make it back to the light once they crossed over.

In my battle we have seen some measure of Victory but it was not our influence alone. Other factors came into play. The unconditional love of his children. The realization he was on the edge and there would be no return. None. He is on the mend.

I respect your positions on most every topic we have discussed.
I respect this one but I have to say I do not agree. Legalization is not the correct path.
Now, what is the answer here.....?????

 

[ATM]

...Legalization is not the correct path.
Now, what is the answer here.....?????

Prohibition was not the correct path, so repeal it. We don't need any law to make something legal.

The answer is to persuade people from their vices, not to coerce them with force. If they won't be persuaded, they face the personal consequences of their free will.

Where their consequences or choices cross the line into crimes against another, they face those consequences as well.

Liberty and justice, what a concept.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

ATM loves liberty more than peace.