Another "victimless crime"

[BE Mike]

Lets look at this from the standpoint that this thing has gotten out of control.
We are searching for answers. We need a plan here. Nothing we have tried is working. The penaltys are having a minimal impact as the end users are not being held to task for their actions.
They waste public resources. They use up an unfair share of 1st responder budget. We are reviving them only to have them repeat time and time again. Nothing is being done to stop this madness.

Now, how in the world will legalizing this activity curtail it.
It will not. This will end up a deeper burden on the tax payers than it is right now.

Do I care, yes. Yes I do care. Deeply. I care for the kids who are subjected to the idiocy of the parents. They are the innocents in all of this and this is a deeper rabbit hole than we are aware of.

I care for the family's torn apart by both alcohol and drug abuse.

An addict will remain so until they make a lucid decision to stop. It has to be them and not us that mandates this. It is up to them.
Same with a smoker. They can stop if they want to.
A heavy drinker (this was me years ago) can stop or control it if they choose to.

My brother.....I have grabbed the yoke. I have rode the storm. I near lost my son to this dark madness. Not heroin but a darkness just as bad and possibly worse.
I know how this goes. It does not go our way no matter how we try or what we do. It is up to them. They choose to start. They also have to make the decision to stop. Many of the young people he went to school with did not make it back to the light once they crossed over.

In my battle we have seen some measure of Victory but it was not our influence alone. Other factors came into play. The unconditional love of his children. The realization he was on the edge and there would be no return. None. He is on the mend.

I respect your positions on most every topic we have discussed.
I respect this one but I have to say I do not agree. Legalization is not the correct path.
Now, what is the answer here.....?????

I agree with you here. Addicts who get clean somehow find the resolve to want it more that the good feeling that the drugs give. Woobie's argument that somehow our laws and policies are to blame for the problems with addiction are pretty weak. Alcohol still destroys lives and families even now. The argument that legalizing it will allow addicts to continue their lifestyle and then to suggest that they will have to face the consequences of their actions is to suggest that they won't get medical treatment for overdosing, etc. That won't happen. I happened to be in the ER last evening with my elderly father. While I was there, there were 2 cases of heroin overdoses. Now, this is a relatively small hospital.That Narcan is one amazing drug. I heard one of the patient's call her mother. She said that she almost died and that she thought her mother should be there. She sounded like she was trying to lay guilt on the mom. After the mother came, I could tell that this wasn't a rare occurrence, before leaving, she kept telling her daughter that she would have to get off heroin. I could tell that the daughter didn't want to hear that. I suppose she was expecting sympathy. To me that mother was expressing love and I'll bet that it was tearing the mom apart. That's so much of the problem. These addicts/ alcoholics affect a tremendous body of people, from relatives, friends, first responders, medical professionals and ultimately tax payers. The simplistic answers that libertarians give aren't the solution. It is going to take an approach that is all encompassing by many very intelligent, knowledgeable and dedicated professionals.

 

[Woobie]

ATM loves liberty more than peace.

Those who would sacrifice liberty for peace.....

 

[Woobie]

I agree with you here. Addicts who get clean somehow find the resolve to want it more that the good feeling that the drugs give. Woobie's argument that somehow our laws and policies are to blame for the problems with addiction are pretty weak. Alcohol still destroys lives and families even now. The argument that legalizing it will allow addicts to continue their lifestyle and then to suggest that they will have to face the consequences of their actions is to suggest that they won't get medical treatment for overdosing, etc. That won't happen. I happened to be in the ER last evening with my elderly father. While I was there, there were 2 cases of heroin overdoses. Now, this is a relatively small hospital.That Narcan is one amazing drug. I heard one of the patient's call her mother. She said that she almost died and that she thought her mother should be there. She sounded like she was trying to lay guilt on the mom. After the mother came, I could tell that this wasn't a rare occurrence, before leaving, she kept telling her daughter that she would have to get off heroin. I could tell that the daughter didn't want to hear that. I suppose she was expecting sympathy. To me that mother was expressing love and I'll bet that it was tearing the mom apart. That's so much of the problem. These addicts/ alcoholics affect a tremendous body of people, from relatives, friends, first responders, medical professionals and ultimately tax payers. The simplistic answers that libertarians give aren't the solution. It is going to take an approach that is all encompassing by many very intelligent, knowledgeable and dedicated professionals.

Do not mischaracterize my argument. You argument looks incredibly weak when you have to misstate mine to make a point. I did not say our laws are causing addiction. I said they are causing violence and destroying innocent lives. They are enriching cartels. None of this can be refuted. Furthermore, no one can show me how the prohibition is helping anything. "Well, it will just get worse." Show your work. Our best example is the alcohol prohibition. Measure the totality of the issues at that time, and tell me if the overall picture was better or worse during or after prohibition.

Earlier I gave some non-simplistic solutions, but your rebuttal is "well those are simplistic." So let's see some solutions from you. Pointing a gun at people and telling them not to do something is as simplistic (and ineffective) as it gets.

And let's look at that bold part. That's the one everyone comes back to, because ultimately that's what they care about. But if you knew the subject about which you care the most, then you would realize the policy of prohibition is the most harmful to taxpayers.

 

[churchmouse]

Prohibition was not the correct path, so repeal it. We don't need any law to make something legal.

The answer is to persuade people from their vices, not to coerce them with force. If they won't be persuaded, they face the personal consequences of their free will.

Where their consequences or choices cross the line into crimes against another, they face those consequences as well.

Liberty and justice, what a concept.

Well, to argue this would make me a fool so I will not. I have to agree to a point. But just to a point. A small itty bitty point.....

Liberty is..............well......the freedom to live as we see fit. Until that pushes my liberty's that is. Say and do as you will. Just do not push me in the saying doing.
Live and let live.....of course. But when you do it at my expense it is no longer liberty in my eyes.
Now how does this equate to the discussion at hand. Easy, these idiots are "Using" the system. They are not contributing to the system as we are all supposed to do.
This can and will start another debate on the system. I am sure you are up to that task........

 

[Woobie]

Lets look at this from the standpoint that this thing has gotten out of control.
We are searching for answers. We need a plan here. Nothing we have tried is working. The penaltys are having a minimal impact as the end users are not being held to task for their actions.
They waste public resources. They use up an unfair share of 1st responder budget. We are reviving them only to have them repeat time and time again. Nothing is being done to stop this madness.

Now, how in the world will legalizing this activity curtail it.
It will not. This will end up a deeper burden on the tax payers than it is right now.

Do I care, yes. Yes I do care. Deeply. I care for the kids who are subjected to the idiocy of the parents. They are the innocents in all of this and this is a deeper rabbit hole than we are aware of.

I care for the family's torn apart by both alcohol and drug abuse.

An addict will remain so until they make a lucid decision to stop. It has to be them and not us that mandates this. It is up to them.
Same with a smoker. They can stop if they want to.
A heavy drinker (this was me years ago) can stop or control it if they choose to.

My brother.....I have grabbed the yoke. I have rode the storm. I near lost my son to this dark madness. Not heroin but a darkness just as bad and possibly worse.
I know how this goes. It does not go our way no matter how we try or what we do. It is up to them. They choose to start. They also have to make the decision to stop. Many of the young people he went to school with did not make it back to the light once they crossed over.

In my battle we have seen some measure of Victory but it was not our influence alone. Other factors came into play. The unconditional love of his children. The realization he was on the edge and there would be no return. None. He is on the mend.

I respect your positions on most every topic we have discussed.
I respect this one but I have to say I do not agree. Legalization is not the correct path.
Now, what is the answer here.....?????

I too have always respected your positions. I see this disagreement as purely intellectual. But there is an emotional component driving the passion behind the argument. I have seen the pain firsthand. And I arrived at the same conclusion as you: government has done nothing to stop it.

So legalization is not a call to fix the drug problem. It is a call to end the madness. It is an acknowledgement of all the problems we are creating, and all of the problems we are not solving. And it is a move towards wiser allocation of resources. Why? How about why not? Give me a good reason to maintain the status quo.

As far as the addicts, some of them truly have no control. They literally can not control themselves and make themselves stop. I have spoken to them as they had tears rolling down their cheeks, telling me they hate it, but don't know how to stop.

I mentioned some fixes earlier. They aren't as easy as throwing a flash bang in a house and confiscating drugs, and they take time to work. But they do not have the track record for utter failure that we currently have.

Also, I am not above a nuanced approach. This can be done many ways and spaced out over time. But it needs to be done in a way that actually makes sense. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that what we are currently doing makes sense.

 

[churchmouse]

Woobie, I am sure you believe what you are posting. And yes, what we are now involved in is in fact utterly senseless.
I believe this faux war is finance generated. Follow the money as it has been so often said and is again, so often true.

Yes, we need another path. A well planned approach with a well defined process and an end that can be achieved. In this Gov. will just totally **** it up as they always do in the search for personal power/money/resources.

Emotions have long since went away in how we (spouse and myself) approach these things. Being emotional makes us easy pray for a well tuned user. They focus on getting inside your head and using you to sustain their life choices. Many of these supposed lost souls are master manipulators. My spouse has a sister that was a pro at manipulating others. A total pill head. Her lies put my spouse at risk on 2 occasions when those the idiot sister owed money were searching for her. These douche bags (2 different crews) showed up at my house. The story here is way to involved to tell here but suffice to know it was not well received by me or others. People were hurt. The sister fled the state.
Yes, this has touched my life deeply.
Just another example of the alleged "Victim-less" part of all of this. There is no "Sane" way to approach this under the current system. Yes, something has to change but again..............wait for it........"What do we change and who do we put in charge"

 

[BE Mike]

Do not mischaracterize my argument. You argument looks incredibly weak when you have to misstate mine to make a point. I did not say our laws are causing addiction. I said they are causing violence and destroying innocent lives. They are enriching cartels. None of this can be refuted. Furthermore, no one can show me how the prohibition is helping anything. "Well, it will just get worse." Show your work. Our best example is the alcohol prohibition. Measure the totality of the issues at that time, and tell me if the overall picture was better or worse during or after prohibition.

Earlier I gave some non-simplistic solutions, but your rebuttal is "well those are simplistic." So let's see some solutions from you. Pointing a gun at people and telling them not to do something is as simplistic (and ineffective) as it gets.

And let's look at that bold part. That's the one everyone comes back to, because ultimately that's what they care about. But if you knew the subject about which you care the most, then you would realize the policy of prohibition is the most harmful to taxpayers.

I didn't intentionally try to mischaracterize your statements. It's how I perceived them. Sometimes the written word does that and we all make opinions based upon our life experiences and opinions. If I were very intelligent maybe I could come up with a solution, but I think that this may be too big a problem for one person to solve, even if they have the intellect to tackle it. I simply don't see legalization, in itself, as a solution. I don't know what the solutions are. Wish I did and we could end the discussion. I do believe that because of the immensity of the problem, without God, there is little chance of success.

 

[Woobie]

I didn't intentionally try to mischaracterize your statements. It's how I perceived them. Sometimes the written word does that and we all make opinions based upon our life experiences and opinions. If I were very intelligent maybe I could come up with a solution, but I think that this may be too big a problem for one person to solve, even if they have the intellect to tackle it. I simply don't see legalization, in itself, as a solution. I don't know what the solutions are. Wish I did and we could end the discussion. I do believe that because of the immensity of the problem, without God, there is little chance of success.

I only see deregulation as a means of stopping the myriad problems surrounding the prohibition. But you hit the nail on the head. Without God, people will continue to do this. Yesterday meth, today heroin, tomorrow ???, and someday in the future we'll be using death sticks like Star Wars.

I think there are some methods for mitigating this, though. But I also think these will end up requiring personal and community involvement. And as busy as everyone is working to support the .gov monster, it can be difficult to find the time.

 

[ATM]

...I simply don't see legalization, in itself, as a solution...

I only see deregulation as a means of stopping the myriad problems surrounding the prohibition...

This part of the exchange illustrates a very important distinction which many either don't understand or won't admit.

As Woobie notes, prohibition not only wasn't a solution, it created new problems and expenses.

Repealing that failed prohibition won't be a solution to anything but those problems and expenses which it created.

To characterize the repeal of this prohibition ("legalization") as some new attempt at a solution for the original problem makes no sense.

Laws can't solve most problems.

 

[churchmouse]

To characterize the repeal of this prohibition ("legalization") as some new attempt at a solution for the original problem makes no sense.

Laws can't solve most problems.

Yes. Exactly.
The real problem is the people involved.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Yes. Exactly.
The real problem is the people involved.

Until we adopt the biblical policy of if you don't work, you don't eat will we see much of a decline of this problem. As long as the welfare state is in place, this will continue.

 

[ATM]

Until we adopt the biblical policy of if you don't work, you don't eat will we see much of a decline of this problem. As long as the welfare state is in place, this will continue.

Yep, the State is never the solution, it always makes problems worse.

 

[Alpo]

Until we adopt the biblical policy of if you don't work, you don't eat will we see much of a decline of this problem. As long as the welfare state is in place, this will continue.

Biblical? Tell me about the Levites.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Biblical? Tell me about the Levites.

You don't have to go back that far. You can if you want. It's a New Testament philosophy as well.

 

[Woobie]

Biblical? Tell me about the Levites.

The ones on duty were working in the temple, not sitting at home collecting a check. If they were not on duty, they worked normal jobs.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

The ones on duty were working in the temple, not sitting at home collecting a check. If they were not on duty, they worked normal jobs.

Yeah, if that's the angle, I misunderstood. They were on a mission from God.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+18

 

[Alpo]

I have no idea what this has to do with drugs other than a puritanical view of the world. Let's just say, the milk of human kindness from that bunch is mighty thin.

 

[Woobie]

I have no idea what this has to do with drugs other than a puritanical view of the world. Let's just say, the milk of human kindness from that bunch is mighty thin.

GFGT brought up the Biblical principle of working for what you receive. That was on topic. Then you brought up Levites. It was a little vague and GFGT took your remark differently and responded as best we could. So if you don't know what it has to do with drugs, join the club. But you brought it up.

 

[churchmouse]

Interesting turn.
GFGT hit the nail squarely on the head.

 

[Woobie]

Interesting turn.
GFGT hit the nail squarely on the head.

Yeah, we have to get out of this mentality that we are entitled to other people's stuff.