A Farewell to Arms (Why I jumped off the Glock bandwagon)

[lovemachine]

Interesting. I'd actually like to learn more about this...

Should you or shouldn't you "modify" your carry/home defense gun?

I switched for all the same reasons you did but...

I like just about every M&P owner felt the trigger needed work, and considered the APEX parts. First and foremost, if I need to make mechanical improvements to the gun right off the bat, something is wrong. Also, after some discussion with people much more versed in all things legal, a firearm where the internal components have been modified opens you up to worlds of legal ramifications, especially if not done by a "qualified gunsmith". So that immediately made me rethink the whole platform. You are literally changing parts that void your warranty and that S&W did not intend to be in the gun. Don't modify a pistol's trigger, mechanical, or safety features you carry that may one day shoot a bad guy, innocent by stander, or yourself.. PERIOD! (You know how Kirk says, "Don't touch your gun", well this is my niche issue. A person I know was invloved in shooting, and very early on the lawyer for the "bad guy" brought up if the pistol had been modified in any manner, which the owner had done some "tinkering at home to the trigger" and he was royally bent over and F*cked. Pistol came back from the factory and was labeled that "non-factory approved modifications" has been performed.)

It's a bigger gun, period. You can make all the size comparison's you want, but it's bigger. You really want to see how much.. Compare a Raven Phantom for each one and lay them side by side. Yeah sure the gun is a hair bigger, but then also the holster is a hair bigger, and before you know it, all those hairs add up on you.

I implore you to not just run those guns statically. When I ran them both at a range in a non stressful situation I made the distinctions you did. The grip was slimmer, my hands could ride higher, etc.. Once I starting training with it, all those become irrelevant quickly. I found myself not nit picking the grip improvements or any of the "magazine review" technical aspects. It didn't improve my reloads, my ability to get it in or out of the holster, and when moving my groups were still pretty much the same.

The yellow lever to take it down, NO-GO! I should be able to field strip it with out tools and that one requires one. Enough said.

Magazines, they are out there, but not in the numbers the Glock is. I shouldn't be forced to deal with the questionable establishment that Botach is for cheap mags. We as a shop rarely get them in to boot. I can order 1000 G19 mags and have them in 2-3 days for 1/2 what the S&W mags go for usually.

Suppressors, I run them alot. My Glock 19 cycles everybody's can and booster fine. I've has a myriad of issues with the M&P with SWR cans.

Evan, lets hit the range.. I won't let you stand still and think... You'll run those two super hard and after the day is done, maybe you'll see what I did...

*Before everyone jumps my chops and calls me a Glock fan boy. I hate the grip on the G19, seriously, it blows... I dare a company to make a gun as simple and well thought out with a better grip.. I'll buy a 100...

 

[gglass]

Gamez235
First and foremost, if I need to make mechanical improvements to the gun right off the bat, something is wrong.

This is where I have to take exception. I respect your decision to like or dislike any firearm or aspect of a firearm. What I have a hard time accepting is the wrong-minded assumption that the M&P trigger is in some way flawed from the factory. The trigger may not be the way you want it to be, but it is in fact Exactly where S&W wants it to be.

The M&P was designed from the ground up to be a handgun "by and for" the LE and military agencies that S&W has been trying to win back. S&W requested the input of a lot of LE agencies, military, and shooting professionals during the development of the M&P. They took the wish lists and complaints about every handgun platform that these agencies and pros submitted. With regard to the trigger and its comparison to Glock, S&W heard loud and clear about what LE agencies in particular found objectionable about Glock's trigger. Many agencies believed that the Glock trigger was not particularly safe since an officer could discharge the handgun, without realizing they were putting that much pressure on the trigger. Just do a Google search about the LE agency complaints about Glock triggers through most of the 1990's. The input from agencies also yielded the takedown lever found in M&P's, as the "pull-the-trigger" takedown approach did not sit well with a lot of agencies, and was considered the source for quite a few deaths and injuries. This information came to me from a S&W LE rep, I met a year ago.

S&W knew from the beginning that the M&P would be used by civilians who would need an improved trigger, which is why the Pro Series was conceived at the same time as the rest of the duty models. This is where the input from other shooting professionals came to fruition. Most people would agree that the Pro Series trigger is a HUGE improvement over the standard duty models.

Apex Tactical has made quite a name for themselves in aftermarket trigger improvements for the M&P, but they did not do this in a vacuum. S&W knows full well what kind of products are being put into their pistols in the quest to improve them. As such, they do not stop Apex or others from reverse engineering and improving their designs, and even honor the warranty for these "improved" M&P's as long as the modified part is not causing the issue.

Any concerns about legal ramifications carry little weight. When an Apex part is used to modify an M&P, Apex then assumes the liability for any incident that their part causes, if it is installed as they instruct... Not matter what Apex might put in a disclaimer.

I think that choosing a handgun, whether it is a Glock, M&P or any other, is a personal decision, and we generally should not question why someone chooses what they do. But, I really want to set the record straight concerning the perceived flaw in the M&P's trigger design... It simply is not a flaw. It is different, but the difference is exactly what S&W was trying to achieve to win LE and military contracts.

Don't even get me going about all the Glock trigger upgrades available.

 

[Clay]

I should be able to field strip it with out tools and that one requires one

No it doesn't.

It includes a tool, but it is not required. I used the included tool 1 time, ever. and I own (and have owned) multiple M&Ps.

 

[cornfused]

no you can't.

I do it every time.

 

[Gamez235]

This is where I have to take exception. I respect your decision to like or dislike any firearm or aspect of a firearm. What I have a hard time accepting is the wrong-minded assumption that the M&P trigger is in some way flawed from the factory. The trigger may not be the way you want it to be, but it is in fact Exactly where S&W wants it to be.

It is not flawed, but a majority of Glock owners making the switch feel it should have the reset and snappyness of the Glock and go about "tinkering". I've never heard anyone complain that thier Beretta doesn't feel like a Glock, but with the M&P has too. "It's the shooter, not the gun that makes it happen" is my thought process..

The M&P was designed from the ground up to be a handgun "by and for" the LE and military agencies that S&W has been trying to win back. S&W requested the input of a lot of LE agencies, military, and shooting professionals during the development of the M&P. They took the wish lists and complaints about every handgun platform that these agencies and pros submitted. With regard to the trigger and its comparison to Glock, S&W heard loud and clear about what LE agencies in particular found objectionable about Glock's trigger. Many agencies believed that the Glock trigger was not particularly safe since an officer could discharge the handgun, without realizing they were putting that much pressure on the trigger. Just do a Google search about the LE agency complaints about Glock triggers through most of the 1990's. The input from agencies also yielded the takedown lever found in M&P's, as the "pull-the-trigger" takedown approach did not sit well with a lot of agencies, and was considered the source for quite a few deaths and injuries. This information came to me from a S&W LE rep, I met a year ago.

Follow the proper firearms safety rules. This is common thought process. Lets make the pistol safer by adding more features instead of ensuring our training is there. Think the .gov stepping in a making all gun have a key lock...

S&W knew from the beginning that the M&P would be used by civilians who would need an improved trigger, which is why the Pro Series was conceived at the same time as the rest of the duty models. This is where the input from other shooting professionals came to fruition. Most people would agree that the Pro Series trigger is a HUGE improvement over the standard duty models.

The Pro Series guns have an "improved trigger", there was nothing wrong with it from the start, fluff marketing..

Apex Tactical has made quite a name for themselves in aftermarket trigger improvements for the M&P, but they did not do this in a vacuum. S&W knows full well what kind of products are being put into their pistols in the quest to improve them. As such, they do not stop Apex or others from reverse engineering and improving their designs, and even honor the warranty for these "improved" M&P's as long as the modified part is not causing the issue.

Correct, also the M&P manual states;

"WARNING: NEVER MANIPULATE, ADJUST OR CHANGE ANY OF THE INTERNAL COMPONENTS OF YOUR FIREARM UNLESS SPECIFICALLY DIRECTED
TO DO SO IN THIS MANUAL. IMPROPER MANIPULATION OF ANY INTERNAL COMPONENT MAY AFFECT THE SAFETY AND RELIABILITY OF YOUR FIREARM AND MAY CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.
WARNING: ANY MAINTENANCE OR SERVICE NOT SPECIFIED IN THIS MANUAL MUST BE PERFORMED BY A QUALIFIED GUNSMITH USING GENUINE SMITH
& WESSON PARTS. IF YOU DO OTHERWISE, IMPROPER FUNCTIONING OF YOUR FIREARM MAY OCCUR AND SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH MAY RESULT."

So if for some reason you end up in court, I highly doubt they will step in and say that the parts that "you" installed or "your" modifications that were not specifically stated in the manual are authorized by the factory.

Any concerns about legal ramifications carry little weight. When an Apex part is used to modify an M&P, Apex then assumes the liability for any incident that their part causes, if it is installed as they instruct... Not matter what Apex might put in a disclaimer.

But, Smith & Wesson told you not to.

I think that choosing a handgun, whether it is a Glock, M&P or any other, is a personal decision, and we generally should not question why someone chooses what they do. But, I really want to set the record straight concerning the perceived flaw in the M&P's trigger design... It simply is not a flaw. It is different, but the difference is exactly what S&W was trying to achieve to win LE and military contracts.

There is no flaw, period.

Don't even get me going about all the Glock trigger upgrades available.

For self defense, DON'T DO IT!

 

[mk2ja]

No it doesn't.

It includes a tool, but it is not required. I used the included tool 1 time, ever. and I own (and have owned) multiple M&Ps.

I field stripped my M&P before I read the manual and found out that the little thing at the bottom of the grip that you have to remove in order to swap back straps was supposed to be involved somehow in the field strip. I tried it that way, but it didn't seem to go back together very easily. The only practical difference between field stripping the Glock and M&P was that the Glock has the little springs while the M&P has a nice lever, like an XD.

I wonder if that tool, or maybe the lever, was what Jahred was talking about earlier. I don't see anything yellow on mine, though.

 

[lovemachine]

In order to not hijack esrice's traitorous to Glock thread ( ), I made a separate thread to discuss "modifying" your carry gun.

Pros and Cons of modifying your carry gun - INGunOwners

 

[Gamez235]

No it doesn't.

It includes a tool, but it is not required. I used the included tool 1 time, ever. and I own (and have owned) multiple M&Ps.

Following the manual, yes you require the grip punch...

• Use the frame tool provided (or a similar device) to lower the sear deactivation lever down into the magazine well

From the M&P manual.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

We could always arrange a side-by-side comparison if it would make you feel better.

Count me in with a 9c w/ apex sear and a bone-stock 9fs!

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Following the manual, yes you require the grip punch...

• Use the frame tool provided (or a similar device) to lower the sear deactivation lever down into the magazine well

From the M&P manual.

Using the tool is NOT REQUIRED.

One does. not. NEED. to use this tool to move the sear disconnect lever. At all. Leave it alone.

Just need to pull the trigger and the slide comes off...just like a Glock.

-J-

 

[Bronsonbull]

Unless you have sausage fingers a pinky should be able to handle this.

But, this is why i love my Hi-Point. The manual tells you not to even take it apart. Does it get any simpler?

Following the manual, yes you require the grip punch...

• Use the frame tool provided (or a similar device) to lower the sear deactivation lever down into the magazine well

From the M&P manual.

 

[shooter521]

N/M

 

[Gamez235]

Using the tool is NOT REQUIRED.

One does. not. NEED. to use this tool to move the sear disconnect lever. At all. Leave it alone.

Just need to pull the trigger and the slide comes off...just like a Glock.

-J-

Then you are defeating the step that the design was meant to defeat and greatly exacerbate the risk of a AD. Again I think this was not needed from the beginning, but S&W did include it and side stepping a safety feature is a grossly negligent step.

So if your buying an M&P for this feature and side stepping it, why consider it.

 

[Gamez235]

BTW, Evan. Seriously great breakdown and write up. I am glad you do take the time to do this type of testing and present the way you do. I owe you a beer or steak and/or a day at the range...

 

[gglass]

I guess that I still don't understand the trigger upgrade paranoia when it comes to the M&P. I cannot think of a many gun designs that do not have an aftermarket upgrade path for the trigger system. There are 1911 trigger upgrades galore, Glock trigger upgrades by the dozen, XD trigger upgrades are quite common, Beretta Model 92 upgrades and so on, but for some reason, it seems to be a shortcoming when it is done to the M&P... That just seems weird to me.

Common trigger aftermarket upgrades:
1911 - 1911 AUTO TRIGGER PULL KITS - Brownells

Beretta 92 - BERETTA TRIGGER CONVERSION UNIT - Brownells

XD - SPRINGFIELD XD/XDM MATCH TARGET EASY-FIT TRIGGER KIT - Brownells

Glock - Glockworx Complete Drop-In Trigger Kit - GlockStore.com

Glock - Lone Wolf Distributors - Product Detail - Lone Wolf "Pro Pick" Trigger Kit

Glock - GLOCK FACTORY PARTS

I could go on and on with more kits for more handgun platforms, but I think I made my point.

If the above platforms come as the manufacturer intended, then why are there aftermarket parts available at all.

Don't get me going on the liability issue for all those upgraders... They are playing Russian roulette with the legal system.

 

[Clay]

I do it every time.

I stand corrected! You sir are correct, I just never tried it!

 

[Clay]

Using the tool is NOT REQUIRED.

One does. not. NEED. to use this tool to move the sear disconnect lever. At all. Leave it alone.

Just need to pull the trigger and the slide comes off...just like a Glock.

-J-

I was coming at this from a different angle.

I dont use the tool, I use my pinky finger.

 

[gglass]

I was coming at this from a different angle.

I dont use the tool, I use my pinky finger.

You don't even need your finger. If you want to remove the slide in the same manner as a Glock... Just pull the trigger. Try it. It works.

The takedown lever was put into the design at the request of LE agencies who wanted a "safer" way to field strip the pistol. It is just that simple, but if you prefer to do it the so-called "dangerous" way, you still have that option.

 

[esrice]

I owe you a beer or steak and/or a day at the range...

I'd like to know more about this steak and range day. . . . .

 

[MontereyC6]

Count me in with a 9c w/ apex sear and a bone-stock 9fs!

I see your 9C and 9FS, and I raise you 1 more 9FS.